| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Let's start a revolution, serfs! Thread poster: blahdibla (X)
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| Proz Certified Pro | Jun 12, 2013 |
If someone were to approach me citing that as a "qualification" worth mentioning, they'd go straight into my bin.
| | | | blahdibla (X)
TOPIC STARTER
[quote]Shai Nave wrote:
Why people fail to understand this is beyond me. Everyone, even the most established of translators/businesses, have started from pretty much nothing; and no, in the past not everything was fine and dandy with legions of clients who offered one unlimited budget knocking on the door twice an hour.
Secondly, Proz is not the face of the marketplace, it is only one avenue.
Where did I mention Proz? This has nothing to do with Proz. I'm simply posting here.
And no, I'm sure the past wasn't all frolicks in the park. But I'm pretty sure it was a time before the economic crisis hit and internet fully took off. So please let's not pretend the past wasn't somewhat easier.
Getting established as a business is not an easy task, some even argue that it should not be easy. Too many independent translators, who are business people first and foremost like John and Łukasz have said, just declare themselves translators one day, register to a website or too, and that's it. Then they sit passively by expecting to magically get established overnight and for an influx of quality work to just drop in their inbox. Well, the business world doesn't work quite like that.
If you are just starting out and don't have any experience, you might want to consider finding a part time job to pay the bills while you gain experience, specialty, and develop your business and career.
There are plenty of people just starting up with relevant qualifications, some even in actual translation, others with years working in-house (there's a thread somewhere on here about a guy who worked in-house for 7 years and is struggling).
. I fail to understand why you chose to dismiss them by claiming what seems to be as "oh, it takes too much hard work and time to get established, you guys had it easy in the past, and I much prefer to have some kind of union that will take care of everything for me".
....and I said that....where, exactly? A union isn't a spoon-feeding machine, it's a group that enables people involved in the same line of work to join forces and demand rights.
Anyway, the last section of your response was reasonably insightful, thank you!
| | | | | Of course we know... but I don't think you do | Jun 12, 2013 |
blahdibla wrote:
If you're young and a newcomer, you know what happens if you ''show a bit of self-respect''?
Yes, we do - because we old fogeys also were young and newcomers, once.
And I have not forgotten how it was back then: We also complained about agencies not paying decent rates, and more established translators having it easy.
Guess what? we were wrong.
Any show of professionalism, such as saying "I could certainly edit your translation, but, before confirming, I need to see it", followed, if necessary by "I'm really sorry, but this translation is so bad that I cannot accept it as an editing job. It needs to be retranslated from scratch, and my rate for translation is X - [give two or three examples of actual egregious errors]" actually has a positive effect on reputable translation companies and experienced PM. You give the impression of knowing what you are doing, while accepting any job, no matter the conditions, only makes one look like an easy mark.
Yes, there are those that would insist that you retranslate the job for a pittance - a very good indication that is not a desirable customer.
I'd recommend you buy and study Corinne McKay's "How to Succeed as a Freelance Translator" and Judy and Dagmar Jenner's "The Entrepreneurial Linguist" - two excellent books written especially for those who are starting in our profession.
[Edited at 2013-06-12 01:51 GMT]
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Riccardo Schiaffino wrote:
Yes, there are those that would insist that you retranslate the job for a pittance - a very good indication that is not a desirable customer.
Don't you ever. Such a client is also unlikely to be aware of, let alone committed to, the traditional understanding that rush jobs necessarily come without the normal degree of tinkering and Polish. BTDT. Terminated the agency, lectured the PM and the owner, refused the payment altogether to protest the attempted reduction, and told them do donate to a charity of their choice as their conscience would dictate. Or something along these lines. Interesting girls, those were. We had a good laugh analysing their tactics with other translators.
From around that point in time, I generally terminate any agency that's markedy too impolite for my taste. I make no fuss if they apply again after a while, but if they haven't reformed, then my resolution won't be reforming much either (one or two jobs and uh, sorry, I'm not available).
[Edited at 2013-06-12 01:02 GMT]
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Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 17:37
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | There is a lot you need to learn about this profession | Jun 12, 2013 |
You haven't given much on your profile, so I assume you are a newbie and have just entered this profession or are still testing the waters.
If you market yourself as a native English speaker, and your profile at least does not indicate that you have any other skill or qualification, what can agencies do with you other than get you to edit English translations, for the only skill you seem to have is being native in English, which is just one of the many, many requirements of a good t... See more You haven't given much on your profile, so I assume you are a newbie and have just entered this profession or are still testing the waters.
If you market yourself as a native English speaker, and your profile at least does not indicate that you have any other skill or qualification, what can agencies do with you other than get you to edit English translations, for the only skill you seem to have is being native in English, which is just one of the many, many requirements of a good translator.
To be a reliable translator you need talent, experience, qualification, specialization and a host of other things. Spent time in acquiring these and you will start getting meaningful projects.
If you don't want to do editing, don't accept the editing work that comes your way. If you find editing work low-paying, increase your rate. There is no need to form a trade union and to cry for a revolution, and these won't help you in any way even if they are some how materialized. ▲ Collapse
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 07:07
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
blahdibla wrote:
A union isn't a spoon-feeding machine, it's a group that enables people involved in the same line of work to join forces and demand rights.
I'm curious about these "rights". "Rights" for me are the right to have the agreement I have made with my client respected, from both sides. It means the right to accept a job that's within my capabilities and price range and the right to walk away from those that aren't. It's the right to negotiate a mutually acceptable agreement with my client that might have absolutely no relationship with the agreement I negotiated with another client. For one client I may agree to a lower price, and to another I might agree to a much higher price. It's the right to market my services to anyone who will listen (because it takes many prospective clients to make a business).
Union "rights" are about things like seniority (I have a right to the job because of my seniority, not because I have any clue about the job), job security (no work? Doesn't matter, I'll get paid anyway), ever increasing pay (despite the fact that the job is sold to the end client at lower than what I'm paid), etc. I've worked in a large unionised company in the past and seen all this and much more. And, by the way, that company doesn't exist any more - the market didn't allow it.
I'm not saying that there aren't places for unions. Perhaps textile plants in Bangledash could be a place to start. But there we're talking about rights relating to health and safety, not the operation of a free market.
[Edited at 2013-06-12 03:26 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 20:07
Chinese to English
| Unions in all shapes and sizes | Jun 12, 2013 |
@John Fossey
I think your understanding of what a union is is a bit limited. You seriously think professions don't have unions? What do you think the bar is? Or the GMC (General Medical Council) - or whatever the Canadian equivalent is? Professionals just don't call their unions unions, and hence avoid the ire of those who dislike unions.
But translators have one - many, in fact! Blahdibla, have you joined the IoL, ATA, ITI, etc.? Join them first, complain later. Oh, and foll... See more @John Fossey
I think your understanding of what a union is is a bit limited. You seriously think professions don't have unions? What do you think the bar is? Or the GMC (General Medical Council) - or whatever the Canadian equivalent is? Professionals just don't call their unions unions, and hence avoid the ire of those who dislike unions.
But translators have one - many, in fact! Blahdibla, have you joined the IoL, ATA, ITI, etc.? Join them first, complain later. Oh, and follow the advice that others have given you here. If you treat agencies as if they were respectable, professional outfits, you will very soon winnow out the decent clients in your list. As someone said above, when you act in a professional way, demanding high standards, good agencies react positively, not negatively. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule |
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| What is your view on this? | Jun 12, 2013 |
blahdibla wrote:
I'm not trying to get your backs up, I'm trying to say that it's all very well dismissing the idea when you're already nice and settled with a solid pen of clients.
But do you honestly believe that a union would change the fact that newcomers have to fight for good customers? That would not change a thing. Union regulations cannot make all customers good customers just by sheer magic.
A union would simply make the market far less flexible and more cumbersome for our customers who, faced with a widespread increase of the rates and opinionated translators, would embrace machine translation ever so happily.
The thought of having a translator organisation fiddling around with my freedom to do business the way I like gives me shivers. My view about all this is that each of us must contribute to improving the market, with good quality in translation, a good service, and gradual exclusion of bottom feeders.
| | | | blahdibla (X)
TOPIC STARTER | Not my idea of a union... | Jun 12, 2013 |
[quote]John Fossey wrote:
I'm curious about these "rights". "Rights" for me are the right to have the agreement I have made with my client respected, from both sides. It means the right to accept a job that's within my capabilities and price range and the right to walk away from those that aren't. It's the right to negotiate a mutually acceptable agreement with my client that might have absolutely no relationship with the agreement I negotiated with another client. For one client I may agree to a lower price, and to another I might agree to a much higher price. It's the right to market my services to anyone who will listen (because it takes many prospective clients to make a business).
Those aren't rights. Those are the basic procedures for establishing a working relationship.
Union "rights" are about things like seniority (I have a right to the job because of my seniority, not because I have any clue about the job), job security (no work? Doesn't matter, I'll get paid anyway), ever increasing pay (despite the fact that the job is sold to the end client at lower than what I'm paid), etc. I've worked in a large unionised company in the past and seen all this and much more. And, by the way, that company doesn't exist any more - the market didn't allow it.
I'm not saying that there aren't places for unions. Perhaps textile plants in Bangledash could be a place to start. But there we're talking about rights relating to health and safety, not the operation of a free market.
[Edited at 2013-06-12 03:26 GMT]
...and those aren't ''union rights'', those are the benefits to becoming a civil servant
Do unions have a bad reputation in Canada?
I'm getting the feeling through this thread that people are loathe to consider translation a trade. What makes it a profession and not a trade?
| | | | blahdibla (X)
TOPIC STARTER | Do you really believe that? | Jun 12, 2013 |
[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
But do you honestly believe that a union would change the fact that newcomers have to fight for good customers? That would not change a thing. Union regulations cannot make all customers good customers just by sheer magic.
True, but a union could impose certain basic, industry norms. If the union became big enough, clients would only want to work with translators who are union members - it woiuld become like a sign of professionalism.
A union would simply make the market far less flexible and more cumbersome for our customers who, faced with a widespread increase of the rates and opinionated translators, would embrace machine translation ever so happily.
Machine translation? Do you really believe that? If you do, then you must believe that machine translation will be taking over completely anyway in the near future?
The thought of having a translator organisation fiddling around with my freedom to do business the way I like gives me shivers. My view about all this is that each of us must contribute to improving the market, with good quality in translation, a good service, and gradual exclusion of bottom feeders.
How will bottom feeders gradually become excluded?
Anyway, this thread is showing me that I need to keep at it and give it more time. I do take on board the idea that the beginning when you're starting out in any line of business will always be a bit grittier. I'm sure things will gradually improve for me. But I don't believe this problem will ever go away. In fact, I can only see a dire future for the translation industry. So many different elements to ensure that things can only get worse, really. And the only solution would be a union. Hey, it worked for the miners!
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 13:07
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Shurely shome mishtake | Jun 12, 2013 |
Jane Proctor wrote:
But don't hold your breath for a revolution as I seem to remember he got short change here!
I suppose you mean "short shrift"... (little or no attention or consideration) rather than cheated or swindled.
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Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 13:07
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Good discussion | Jun 12, 2013 |
Quit while we're ahead?
Godwin's Law might come into play soon here. Haha.
| | | | | A union is for employees | Jun 12, 2013 |
blahdibla wrote:
A union isn't a spoon-feeding machine, it's a group that enables people involved in the same line of work to join forces and demand rights.
Rights? When people start to talk about rights, I always check whether my wallet is still in my pocket. Unfortunately, in recent decades rights in Europe means that someone gets something with no effort, while others work hard to pay for things they do not believe in.
I think you fail to see the main point here: we are independent professionals, and as such, we are not employees faced with employers in a position of force (either we do what they say, or our kids go hungry). As independent professionals, we are free not to work for people who offer absurd conditions, which should always be coupled with sensible marketing and business practices we have to learn in order to succeed.
The main translator associations, like ATA, BDÜ, IOL, ITI, etc. are already promoting best practices in translation and in the business around translation, and yet they do not alter our freedom to deal as we deem best or decide our working conditions. This is what professional organisations should do.
| | | | blahdibla (X)
TOPIC STARTER
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
blahdibla wrote:
A union isn't a spoon-feeding machine, it's a group that enables people involved in the same line of work to join forces and demand rights.
Rights? When people start to talk about rights, I always check whether my wallet is still in my pocket. Unfortunately, in recent decades rights in Europe means that someone gets something with no effort, while others work hard to pay for things they do not believe in.
I think you fail to see the main point here: we are independent professionals, and as such, we are not employees faced with employers in a position of force (either we do what they say, or our kids go hungry). As independent professionals, we are free not to work for people who offer absurd conditions, which should always be coupled with sensible marketing and business practices we have to learn in order to succeed.
The main translator associations, like ATA, BDÜ, IOL, ITI, etc. are already promoting best practices in translation and in the business around translation, and yet they do not alter our freedom to deal as we deem best or decide our working conditions. This is what professional organisations should do.
...so essentially, you take an "I'm alright, Jack" approach to your industry. Fair enough. But then don't try and swing it like you're a hard grafter shelling out for all those lazy layabouts. It's sad you believe that that's what rights in Europe mean today. As greed, technology and globalization all spread, I don't see it as people wanting a free ride, I see it as people increasingly fighting back and failing against the ever-growing threat of rampant capitalism. Of course it will fail. Here in Europe the sun is setting on pretty much everything. But to slate people's efforts to reverse the irreversible seems unkind.
As for the associations, I see their value but I also see their limits.
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