| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] | Let's start a revolution, serfs! Thread poster: blahdibla (X)
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Shai Navé 
Israel
Local time: 13:28
English to Hebrew
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| One more comment | Jun 14, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Also, when you get a WWA, it's a lot of pressure to give the agency a 5 rather than a 4, which it really should be, or even 3 for being average.
This quid pro quo is one example or the BB abuse. There are others, such as agencies who don't pay as a policy, knowing that only relatively few translators will post something on the BB, so they can get away with it. When a translator does post something, they give some excuse and condition receipt of immediate payment by amending the entry to 5, and put a lot of pressure on the translator. Many translators (yet again) cave to the pressure because they want to get paid and the result is a skewed BB record. Also, there is LWA harvesting; be vary careful with BB records full of 5 ratings that seem to be posted in batches (several of those in a single day or few consecutive days), especially if there are several batches of this type throughout.
There are several posts on this topic, even in these forums.
It is also worth noting that translators can also abuse the BB by using it as some kind of blackmail mechanism.
The bottom line is that like every other blacklist system, it could be quite easily abused and therefore should be taken with caution.
Even if we ignore the legal considerations (and the fact that we live in different economies) when calling to apply a global minimum fee and terms and conditions, it won't work for a very specific reason. As John said, we are not employees. The union/organization doesn't negotiate a collective agreement on behalf of us that is later translated (no pun intended) into our salary. Ultimately, it always comes down to an isolated negotiation between a translator and a client, and there are probably hundreds to thousands of those happening each day. There is nothing preventing a "union member" to cave in and accept ridiculous fees and conditions anymore than it is today.
| | | | Sian Cooper
France
Local time: 12:28
French to English
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In memoriam | Climbing the career ladder | Jun 14, 2013 |
It is so good to see all this discussion going on.
Anyone who wants to join a 'power to the translators' group, you may wish to join this:
http://nopeanuts.wordpress.com/
Most of this is a response to Shai, really. Shai, I think we basically agree, we are just negotiating the price!
Some of what I say may sound pretentious or over-reaching for someone w... See more It is so good to see all this discussion going on.
Anyone who wants to join a 'power to the translators' group, you may wish to join this:
http://nopeanuts.wordpress.com/
Most of this is a response to Shai, really. Shai, I think we basically agree, we are just negotiating the price!
Some of what I say may sound pretentious or over-reaching for someone who is new to this industry. In my defence, I am from a senior management background in software development, and I know what 'quality' and 'professionalism' mean. Different skills, same values.
I would like to start my feedback by saying that I have a very high opinion of my own self-worth and skill-sets. I have a feeling this is a basic necessity in order to be a successful translator! I never work for the lowest-paid sector. In other words, I do not work for what I consider to be peanuts. I do work for what other, established translators probably consider to be peanuts, though.
I know that I am not being paid as much as I (think I) should be - but I will be. It is a normal career-path, especially if one does not have the qualifications. I had to start low, prove myself and climb in the IT industry. I was very successful, but it took time and determination and being good at what I did.
I consider that my translation career needs to follow the same process. However wonderful I think I am (and I do!), I am humble and realistic enough to know that everybody else doesn't know that and they aren't just going to accept my word on it.
So, I am going through an apprenticeship, gaining skills and networking. I do free work for TWB when I have time. I have started with lower-end, lower-paid jobs. I have a minimum below which I will not go (I havn't had to accept it yet, quite). That minimum is about 50% of what experienced, qualified translators seem to consider is a decent average rate, and about twice what I consider to be 'peanuts'. I don't intend to stay at that level, so I am pursuing my training and education, including listening to the kind words of advice from more experienced colleagues. This is gradually allowing me to be taken seriously by the higher-grade, better paying agencies.
Patience, having a plan, delivering quality and yes, aiming upwards are necessary. But you do have to start somewhere, and it is never at the top.
Meanwhile, I know there is a level below, where I will not go and of which I disapprove. But I still buy cheap clothes and like to see the price of my hardware going down. We all accept sweat-shops somewhere in our lives. The translation industry has its own sweat-shops. To change that, we have to change the world economic and political structure. I fear the translator's lobby will never have quite that power! So, we work within it and try to emphasise and live the concept of quality over price-speed.
But not everyone can do that. I happen to live in the part of France that has the highest levels of unemployment in the country, and just popping out to get another job is not an option. I am lucky enough to have a partner who is earning a decent living and can subisidise me temporarily, and also lucky enough to be in a country where the social benifits are good. Others are not so lucky. If you don't pay the bills, you have no food, no home. Sweat-shops beckon. The clients and the agents seem to me to be no more abusive in this industry than in others.
On the BB, I would stress that I did say it was a helpful weeding-out process. I agree it is open to abuse, but generally if there is a good volume of positive feedback I consider it a good starting point. If there is a considerable volume of negative feedback, I don't waste my time. I also sometimes check on the translators who have fed back, to get an idea of whether I consider them to be experienced professionals. If there is no feedback, well, I have to look elsewhere. But again, if we treat it seriously, it can be a seriously useful tool. If we sneer at it and ignore it because We're Above That, it won't be. The influence and voice of quality can infiltrate itself everywhere.
On the red P and quality, I have to agree with Tomás. 'Normal business' deserves the same high quality - the red P says you are a professional, and in business, professionalism is called for. For those who wish to promote translation quality, and specifically quality here on ProZ, which IS the leading forum in the translation profession, I advocate becoming actively involved in this. The first translation I was asked to review was FAR from what I considered to be acceptable, and I was delighted to have an opportunity to reject someone.
Power to the quality professionals! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 13:28
English to Hebrew
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| To Sian, I didn't mean you personally | Jun 14, 2013 |
Thank you for your reply.
I just want to clarify that in my post I did not mean to direct the comments at you, I just used two sentences that you wrote as a reference on which I built my post.
About the BB, I just shared my perspective as I often see people relying on it a bit too much, often times out of navieness or misunderstanding about what it represents (i.e. a 5 doesn't necessarily mean a great professional outsorucer, it just means an outsourcer who pays as agreed).... See more Thank you for your reply.
I just want to clarify that in my post I did not mean to direct the comments at you, I just used two sentences that you wrote as a reference on which I built my post.
About the BB, I just shared my perspective as I often see people relying on it a bit too much, often times out of navieness or misunderstanding about what it represents (i.e. a 5 doesn't necessarily mean a great professional outsorucer, it just means an outsourcer who pays as agreed).
The other sentence I quoted was just to point out that the reasoning behind the argument something is better than nothing is sometimes misleading, but many freelancers (not just in translation) use it to justify almost anything. You actually made perfectly clear in your original post that you do not work for what you consider to be 'peanuts' so this was really not aimed at you personally, I just quoted it (out of context) as a reference.
I meant to say that as independent translators running a business we should consider it to be a career (much in the lines of what you have wrote and described in your recent post), and the 'something is better than nothing' mentality that many independent translators seem to sport and be focused on is a passive-reactive approach that doesn't advance one's career, just the contrary.
[Edited at 2013-06-14 12:47 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 06:28
Spanish to English
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| I couldn't agree more... | Jun 14, 2013 |
Shai Nave wrote:
Working for low fees, unreasonable terms and other kinds of abusive practices just because seemingly something is better than nothing is a slippery slope. It might have some short term benefit (i.e. pay the next couple of bills) but it leads to a long term damage. It is like sewing the branch one sits on just because one needs some wood to keep oneself warm.
It is a vicious cycle, all those low-tier time wasters are not stepping stones, they are anchors on one's career. Getting sucked into their world is like running in quick sand. Sadly, I've witnessed this happening, and it costs people their health over time.
Therefore, my advice for those who can't seem to find "quality" work and justify working for ridiculous fees and condition by the need to pay the bills is to find a job, any job, even unskilled minimum wage one. It has guaranteed pay for keeping up with the bills, social benefits, one is actually earning pretty much the same (or more) than as an independent translator, and at the end of the day no need to worry too much about anything - without all the administrative stress and hassle that involved with running a business.
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AnnaSCHTR
United States
Local time: 05:28
English to Czech
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| Agree with Sian... | Jun 14, 2013 |
Sian Cooper wrote:
Patience, having a plan, delivering quality and yes, aiming upwards are necessary. But you do have to start somewhere, and it is never at the top.
Meanwhile, I know there is a level below, where I will not go and of which I disapprove. But I still buy cheap clothes and like to see the price of my hardware going down. We all accept sweat-shops somewhere in our lives. The translation industry has its own sweat-shops. To change that, we have to change the world economic and political structure. I fear the translator's lobby will never have quite that power! So, we work within it and try to emphasise and live the concept of quality over price-speed.
While I would not like to dismiss the idea of a world-wide translators' lobby setting standards both for quality and pricing, I must agree with Sian that this is hardly realistic. All we can do is to represent this industry the best we can, and speak about the issues in a constructive way. It was NOT easy to start working in this industry several decades ago. It is never easy to build your career on quality, hard work and honesty. There are no guarantees, either - after many years, you might find you still need to market yourself, you still need to prove your skills again and again, you still need to negotiate, be flexible, and learn constantly. So, if you are serious about this career, don't give up
| | | | Sian Cooper
France
Local time: 12:28
French to English
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In memoriam | Thanks Shai - didn't mean to sound offended :) | Jun 14, 2013 |
Sorry Shai, didn't mean to repeat myself or sound offended, totally not.
Still, I believe there is no harm in banging home the 'quality' message. I'm a great one for evangelising.
On the other hand, I do sometimes reach panic levels and think, god, 10K words 0.02USD a word to be delivered by yesterday, it's money, I could stay up all night and make a rubbish job of it (by my standards - which would still be better than a lot of what you see in print/online) but at leas... See more Sorry Shai, didn't mean to repeat myself or sound offended, totally not.
Still, I believe there is no harm in banging home the 'quality' message. I'm a great one for evangelising.
On the other hand, I do sometimes reach panic levels and think, god, 10K words 0.02USD a word to be delivered by yesterday, it's money, I could stay up all night and make a rubbish job of it (by my standards - which would still be better than a lot of what you see in print/online) but at least I could buy myself a pair of trousers that fit.
So far I have not succumbed, but it is very easy to see why people do. I have three cats to feed! ▲ Collapse
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