| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Let's start a revolution, serfs! Thread poster: blahdibla (X)
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Jane Proctor (X) 
France
Local time: 12:33
French to English
According to Macmillion, short-change is an informal term meaning:
"to treat someone unfairly or dishonestly by giving them less of something than they want or need"
Note unfairly OR dishonestly. I'm not suggesting that the previous Asker was treated dishonestly. But unfairly, yes.
My take on this is that whilst many translators have a good business head, there are many other great translators who don't. There are people in life who take advantage and there... See more According to Macmillion, short-change is an informal term meaning:
"to treat someone unfairly or dishonestly by giving them less of something than they want or need"
Note unfairly OR dishonestly. I'm not suggesting that the previous Asker was treated dishonestly. But unfairly, yes.
My take on this is that whilst many translators have a good business head, there are many other great translators who don't. There are people in life who take advantage and there are others who get taken advantage of. Now it's all well and good to say that those being taken advantage of have only themselves to blame, but... and I say this as a very strong person, who believes in 2-way fair play and believe me, any "client" trying to pull a fast one on me, won't see me for dust... if you need to put bread on the table and you're not one of life's fighters, then I guess it's very tough.
At least these two Askers are, whatever you think of their idea, raising their heads above the parapet and voicing their frustration - whilst thousands of others are too busy with their rushed 2 cent bottom-feeder jobs.
That's me done...!
Have a good day everyone!
Except Neilmac has now removed his remark questioning the meaning of "short-change". Can't imagine a moderator would have felt the need to.
[Edited at 2013-06-12 09:23 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-06-12 10:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Learning curve | Jun 12, 2013 |
I'm sure pretty much all of us have experience working for low wages and bad agencies at the beginning of our careers. I know I have. A natural part of the learning curve.
But the OP's language ("I'm sick of...") suggests that he or she has been suffering this treatment for a LONG time. And this is where the problem lies, IMHO.
Agencies who treat their translators well and who pay well ARE out there. But it takes work and marketing yourself as a professional to get on... See more I'm sure pretty much all of us have experience working for low wages and bad agencies at the beginning of our careers. I know I have. A natural part of the learning curve.
But the OP's language ("I'm sick of...") suggests that he or she has been suffering this treatment for a LONG time. And this is where the problem lies, IMHO.
Agencies who treat their translators well and who pay well ARE out there. But it takes work and marketing yourself as a professional to get on their books. It's not a case of harvesting email addresses from the web and sending your CV off in the hope you will get work; it's about patiently studying individual agencies (and their Blue Board ratings), deciding which would be interested in my services (and I in theirs) and sending them information about my skills and services.
THIS is how you get work. Among other approaches. If you are still here complaining about bad agencies who treat your poorly, it either means you are happy with your situation, or that you are unable or unwilling to change it. Unable? You are registered with ProZ, which has pretty much all the information you could ever want, in the form of articles, forum discussions and other things.... all you need to do is look.
Unwilling to change? Sadly no-one here can help you with that.
Some of the prices currently being offered by agencies make cleaning jobs a more viable alternative. Fixed hours, less responsibility, and when I leave I'm done for the day. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 13:33
English to Hebrew
+ ...
| Couple of clarificatrion | Jun 12, 2013 |
Where did I mention Proz? This has nothing to do with Proz. I'm simply posting here.
Okay, I apologize for the misunderstanding, but what I've said remains valid, just replace Proz with any other resource/platform that you use. People, especially when starting out, tend to focus on limited, passive-reactive type of platforms. While this could be useful to some extent, the negative side is that these platforms are also where most of those low-tier bad (and sometimes fraudulent) agencies live and operate, and the result is that one could develop the false idea that this is 'the marketplace' in its full.
And no, I'm sure the past wasn't all frolicks in the park. But I'm pretty sure it was a time before the economic crisis hit and internet fully took off. So please let's not pretend the past wasn't somewhat easier.
No one is pretending anything. You are just basing your opinion on a huge unfounded assumption about the past. You are not alone, every "generation" thinks that its predecessors had it easy.
You will be surprised to know that many didn't start so long ago as you might assume. And the economy is just one huge excuse (did the cost of living decreased in recent years? Are there no new products, services, companies, business opportunities? Did all trade between countries stopped? etc.) that is thrown out as a FUD mechanism, knowing perfectly well what buttons to push to trigger the deepest fears of insecure and/or inexperienced independent translator (and the deepest fears of all business owners actually, only that professionals don't let their fears take over and dictate their actions.
Don't ever forget, no one is doing you a favor by hiring your services. You provide a valuable and in-demand service that the end clients are using to make money and/or other benefits from.
About the internet. Every coin has two sides. The positive side of the internet is that it has created and still creates new opportunities, and in many ways makes your work easier from a logistics point of view. The negative side, however, is that the internet also makes it easier for all kinds of entities to find and contact you. There is a saying about all those viral videos of people doing stupid things: The internet doesn't make you stupid, it just makes your stupidity more accessible to others. So, if to paraphrase, the internet did not create those agencies, it just made it easier for them to find you.
There are a lot of business opportunities each day, but not all business opportunity are equal. You just have to be say no to those who are misaligned with your professional and business value or are just abusive. You should not get discouraged if it seems that you get a lot of these, there are a lot more unprofessionals than professional, you just have to make sure that you are working to achieve your goal and conduct yourself professionaly. Remember, those parasites are feeding off the translators, and they succeed only because (good but not business savvy) translators let them to.
There are plenty of people just starting up with relevant qualifications, some even in actual translation, others with years working in-house (there's a thread somewhere on here about a guy who worked in-house for 7 years and is struggling).
Because starting up is not easy. Qualifications and in-house experience are almost irrelevant when you go out and start your own business. In-house experience is valuable to your core work, maybe even for understanding a little better how the marketplace works, but they are almost irrelevant when it comes to running your own business.
There is a thumb rule in business (it applies globally but I'm using it here in the context of translation): A mediocre translator with good business skills will more often than not do better in the real world than a great translator with poor to mediocre business skills.
....and I said that....where, exactly? A union isn't a spoon-feeding machine, it's a group that enables people involved in the same line of work to join forces and demand rights.
If I misunderstood you then I apologize for that. The thing is that we don't really need a union. Personally I would love to see some globally recognized accreditation and better standards, just to show that an individual has invested time and effort and is taking the profession seriously (and also as a rough filter that may discourage some of the amateurs and scammers that are plaguing the marketplace), but these kind of system are not perfect and won't magically turn unprofessionals into professionals (not in a universal way that is).
Instead of devising complicated umbrella organizations, the origin of change is much simpler and comes from within.
[Edited at 2013-06-12 13:54 GMT]
| | | | Gül Kaya
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:33
Turkish to English
+ ...
| My $0.02 worth (per word) | Jun 12, 2013 |
Anyway, this thread is showing me that I need to keep at it and give it more time. I do take on board the idea that the beginning when you're starting out in any line of business will always be a bit grittier. I'm sure things will gradually improve for me.
Yes I'm sure they will improve. However, what I've found is that a positive attitude equals to about 90 percent of your chances of making a solid success of it. You sound really fed up and yes it can get you down when all you seem to face is a barrage of chancer "agencies" set up yesterday by 21 year olds in their bedroom, who are harvesting CVs for a "potential big government contract." But once you go past them, zen-like, then you get to the sunny uplands of decent agencies. And they do exist. So buck up and don't let the ......s get you down!
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Suzan Hamer
Netherlands
Local time: 12:33
English
+ ...
Fiona Peterson wrote:
The power lies in YOUR hands. Start respecting yourself as a professional, stop working for "agencies" who do not respect their translators, and find ones who do, or look for direct clients.
As I've stated recently in another thread, I don't work with agencies at all. I work only with (NOT for) direct clients. This eliminates the problems blahdibla mentions and makes life so much easier. You get what you expect. Expect to work with wonderful people who respect and value you and what you do, and voila! that is what you get.
And I endorse what Shai said.
[Edited at 2013-06-12 11:47 GMT]
| | | | | our profession... | Jun 12, 2013 |
well, it takes a long time to establish a good client base. It took me a few years. A basic principle when approaching an independent profession is that you must have enough capital to support yourself when establishing your client base. Obviously, the OP didn't think about this, and now he is complaining about his state of affairs and the whole translation world. Whose fault is it? Our job is an independent profession like many others. We are freelancers. We are free. You are free. If you don'... See more well, it takes a long time to establish a good client base. It took me a few years. A basic principle when approaching an independent profession is that you must have enough capital to support yourself when establishing your client base. Obviously, the OP didn't think about this, and now he is complaining about his state of affairs and the whole translation world. Whose fault is it? Our job is an independent profession like many others. We are freelancers. We are free. You are free. If you don't have enough clients or don't have the capital to support yourself at the beginning of your professional life, find yourself a part-time job, so you don't have to accept low paid jobs or be treated like a doormat. You will be able to choose. That's what I did. It worked out fine. Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 06:33
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
| Professional bodies are not unions | Jun 12, 2013 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
The main translator associations, like ATA, BDÜ, IOL, ITI, etc. are already promoting best practices in translation and in the business around translation, and yet they do not alter our freedom to deal as we deem best or decide our working conditions. This is what professional organisations should do.
Exactly, which is why these are not unions.
Phil Hand wrote:
@John Fossey
I think your understanding of what a union is is a bit limited. You seriously think professions don't have unions? What do you think the bar is? Or the GMC (General Medical Council) - or whatever the Canadian equivalent is? Professionals just don't call their unions unions, and hence avoid the ire of those who dislike unions.
But translators have one - many, in fact! Blahdibla, have you joined the IoL, ATA, ITI, etc.? Join them first, complain later. Oh, and follow the advice that others have given you here. If you treat agencies as if they were respectable, professional outfits, you will very soon winnow out the decent clients in your list. As someone said above, when you act in a professional way, demanding high standards, good agencies react positively, not negatively.
Sorry, I disagree. Professional associations such as the Bar, GMC, IoL, ATA, ITI are not unions. And not simply to avoid "the ire" of people, rather because they are fundamentally different. The OPs idea of "demanding rights" comes close to collusion on prices ("applying our minimum rates"), which is a crime in many countries. That is not what professional associations are for. In fact they go to great lengths to avoid getting into that area.
[Edited at 2013-06-12 12:43 GMT]
| | | | blahdibla (X)
TOPIC STARTER
John Fossey wrote:
Sorry, I disagree. Professional associations such as the Bar, GMC, IoL, ATA, ITI are not unions. And not simply to avoid "the ire" of people, rather because they are fundamentally different. The OPs idea of "demanding rights" comes close to collusion on prices ("applying our minimum rates"), which is a crime in many countries. That is not what professional associations are for. In fact they go to great lengths to avoid getting into that area.
[Edited at 2013-06-12 12:43 GMT]
This is my fault, I wasn't clear. By ''applying minimum rates'' what I meant was that members of the union and clients using union translators would agree that no job can be done for less than the stipulated minimum rate (for argument's sake, let's say EUR 0.07).
Now if you wanted to continuously ask for a full euro per word, then fine. Nobody's saying you can't charge what you want, but it's the idea that you wouldn't be able to drop any lower than 0.07.
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| I am sick of it too | Jun 12, 2013 |
I am sick of translators accepting jobs for peanuts and wailing about the industry.
There are too many translators charging only peanuts.
There are too many translators working in fields the know nothing about.
We don't need a union or a revolution, all translators need to do is:
- stop accepting jobs for peanuts. It would take less than 6 month and the problem would be gone.
- stop accepting jobs they can't handle. The respect of the clients would in... See more I am sick of translators accepting jobs for peanuts and wailing about the industry.
There are too many translators charging only peanuts.
There are too many translators working in fields the know nothing about.
We don't need a union or a revolution, all translators need to do is:
- stop accepting jobs for peanuts. It would take less than 6 month and the problem would be gone.
- stop accepting jobs they can't handle. The respect of the clients would increase dramatically
Each translator is responsible for his/her own success, there are many ways to become successful, but the first thing is - stop wailing - pull your fingers out your... and start behaving like a professional. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 06:33
Spanish to English
+ ...
| It takes time | Jun 12, 2013 |
I think a lot of people accept work under inferior conditions because they underestimate the time it takes to become a full-time translator.
For most people, it is not an instant process.
If we were honest with people considering a career in translation and told them, for example, that as a new translator (with full-time availability) they should expect to earn the following:
First Year: less than $500.00
Second Year: around 2,000.00 to 3,000.00
Third... See more I think a lot of people accept work under inferior conditions because they underestimate the time it takes to become a full-time translator.
For most people, it is not an instant process.
If we were honest with people considering a career in translation and told them, for example, that as a new translator (with full-time availability) they should expect to earn the following:
First Year: less than $500.00
Second Year: around 2,000.00 to 3,000.00
Third Year: perhaps 8,000.00 to 10,000.00
perhaps fewer people would hang out their shingle or at least be prepared for a long uphill climb.
You really need to have a second income for the first two to three years in order to avoid the need to accept these conditions and build a sustainable client base.
[Edited at 2013-06-12 18:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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blahdibla wrote:
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
A union would simply make the market far less flexible and more cumbersome for our customers who, faced with a widespread increase of the rates and opinionated translators, would embrace machine translation ever so happily.
Machine translation? Do you really believe that? If you do, then you must believe that machine translation will be taking over completely anyway in the near future?
I did not say that. Machine translation is here to stay, that is for sure, and there will clearly be customers who do not have the budget for a human translation. If a union of some kind made translation rates rigid, more customers would happily "jump the fence" into MT+post editing.
blahdibla wrote:
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
The thought of having a translator organisation fiddling around with my freedom to do business the way I like gives me shivers. My view about all this is that each of us must contribute to improving the market, with good quality in translation, a good service, and gradual exclusion of bottom feeders.
How will bottom feeders gradually become excluded?
Simple: each of us has to stop accepting unreasonable rates and conditions. The sooner we do it, the bigger the chances that bad translation agencies disappear, since they will find it increasingly difficult to get good translations at their rates.
| | | | | Not to sound like a broken record... | Jun 12, 2013 |
Simple: each of us has to stop accepting unreasonable rates and conditions. The sooner we do it, the bigger the chances that bad translation agencies disappear, since they will find it increasingly difficult to get good translations at their rates.
You can only do that if you are not forced to accept low rates to survive. We are businesses and you need a business plan before you start. One of the reasons our profession is in such a bad state is the lack of business common sense. No other business would start trading without a reasonable financial backup. But we do it. And then we complain. I would never have dreamt to start translating without some sort of financial support. By ignoring this simple fact, we are indeed jeopardising our category.
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| ProZ and similar sites, the ideal platforms for low-tier bad agencies | Jun 12, 2013 |
Shai Nave wrote:
,,, these platforms are also where most of those low-tier bad (and sometimes fraudulent) agencies live and operate...
I entirely agree with Shai.
ProZ and similar sites provide the ideal operating environment for the worst agencies.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Requested by poster | | Same old problem as with capitalism | Jun 12, 2013 |
Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
I am sick of translators accepting jobs for peanuts and wailing about the industry.
There are too many translators charging only peanuts.
There are too many translators working in fields the know nothing about.
We don't need a union or a revolution, all translators need to do is:
- stop accepting jobs for peanuts. It would take less than 6 month and the problem would be gone.
- stop accepting jobs they can't handle. The respect of the clients would increase dramatically
Each translator is responsible for his/her own success, there are many ways to become successful, but the first thing is - stop wailing - pull your fingers out your... and start behaving like a professional.
Siegfried, with all due deference (as you know like 20 times more than I do about this business and probably about business in general), that's a bit like saying everything would be okay with capitalism if workers, consumers etc. voted with their legs or wallets respectively. But somebody has to be the first and others have to follow suit. There will be no simultaneous wallet-voting on the part of everybody involved. Individual translators will refuse to work for less than they should be paid, and some will start getting better rates, while others will lose clients, lose work, go out of business.
This said, from what I know just simply charging more is an important step on moving into the group that charges that and is paid that. Also, plenty of problems known from the lower price segments actually disappear in the higher echelons. Less amateur revising, for instance.
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