| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] | A Proz.com member delivered a machine translated project Thread poster: Fernando Larrazabal
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Fouad Hassaan 
Türkiye
Local time: 09:40
Member (2005)
English to Arabic
+ ...
| Who should decide? | Feb 15, 2009 |
I think we all agree that it is not accepted if it is really a machine translation but who should decide that?
If the original translator insists on that quality is good and it is only stylistic differences. Also, the proofreader says it is a machine translation. Then the solution should be to let a third professional native translator to have a quick look for just a specific problematic comments or changes.
You may loss some money for this step, but you will know who ... See more I think we all agree that it is not accepted if it is really a machine translation but who should decide that?
If the original translator insists on that quality is good and it is only stylistic differences. Also, the proofreader says it is a machine translation. Then the solution should be to let a third professional native translator to have a quick look for just a specific problematic comments or changes.
You may loss some money for this step, but you will know who to deal with in future.
Some proofreaders like to despise other translators quality to get their client sanctification for future projects. I know this is very awful but it happens more than you imagine.
Please try to take this step. ▲ Collapse
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Bizukeigo's translator wrote:
- There were indeed some minor mistakes. As the deadline for the translation was very demanding I did not have the time to review everything in detail.
- 90% of the corrections are a matter of style and as you surely styles can be different so in fact these are NO errors by common standards
- When clients complain about quality it is common practise to give the translator the chance to rework before hiring a proof reader
- You know very well that the market price for the work I did is at least 3 times higher so you can't expect perfect quality that even a software specialist could not guarantuee.
Well well well … I think we translators can all take this colleague as a shining example - on how not to go about for netting lots of repeat sales.
Of course, repeat sales probably weren't on top of the translator's mind anyway when he handed in his machine “translation”. It still boggles my mind that he should have believed that his conspicuous little ruse would catch nobody's eyes.
However the translator may have calculated that it would be very expensive for a Japanese agency to legally feud with a translator from overseas over a comparably small job. And based on what he writes, he might count on the fact that it is very difficult to differentiate between matters of style and translation errors - except for the very utmost blunt cases such as grammar mistakes or translated family names.
Thus the translator might speculate that his “work” will be impossible to sell to the end client whilst, at the same time, it will be impossible to prove that his work is as bad as it really is.
Brazilian afternoon artichokes perhaps?
I'm sorry that Bizukeigo came across such a translation and I wish I could name an easy way to avoid that. However, I don't believe high WWA ratings are a complete solution, and neither are high KudoZ ratings. Any classical invitation for tender is a competition of unknown translators and thus carries in and out of itself an intrinsic, residual risk: the risk that the service of the chosen translator will not be up to par.
Translations are a key component of what the agency sells (indeed, they are their main “product”). So minimizing the risk of bad translations is an important consideration. A common way of mitigating this is relying on a tried-and-true base of translators that one knows and trusts, that one keeps for as long as possible and that one avoids setting up for competition. But this is not always possible, of course.
Peter
[Edited at 2009-02-16 01:00 GMT]
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freearabo wrote:
I think we all agree that it is not accepted if it is really a machine translation but who should decide that?
If the original translator insists on that quality is good and it is only stylistic differences. Also, the proofreader says it is a machine translation. Then the solution should be to let a third professional native translator to have a quick look for just a specific problematic comments or changes.
...
Johanna Timm, PhD wrote:
The answer
... is "Reverso"
I have tested other parts of the file and I'm almost sure the 'translator' used the Reverso MT engine or a flavor or it.
| | | | | What made this case come up right now? | Feb 16, 2009 |
I noticed, by the way, that the tender that led to the current case seems to have been held at the beginning of last August. Surely a translation dispute that happened last August ought to be resolved by now?
What happened that made this case come up right now, about half a year later?
P.
[Edited at 2009-02-16 08:13 GMT]
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Peter Bouillon wrote:
I noticed, by the way, that the tender that led to the current case seems to have been held at the beginning of last August. Surely a translation dispute that happened last August ought to be resolved by now?
What happened that made this case come up right now, about half a year later?
P.
[Edited at 2009-02-16 08:13 GMT]
First, those 3600 words were hardly 0.2% of the total project and the other 99.8% kept us busy at the office.
Second, not being much of a forum user, only last week I realized it could be interesting to hear the voice of other Proz users.
| | | | | Sent in the wrong file? | Feb 21, 2009 |
I'm wondering if the member sent the wrong file. Not defending anyone, but I've mistakenly sent a pre-proofread file to a client.
Either way, it comes down to is did you have a contract with the translator that spells out what you would do in the case of a dispute? If not, you need to send a letter giving the translator "x" days to respond and correct mistakes. I would definitely initiate the Paypal dispute, because that can be retracted at anytime, and from personal experience with... See more I'm wondering if the member sent the wrong file. Not defending anyone, but I've mistakenly sent a pre-proofread file to a client.
Either way, it comes down to is did you have a contract with the translator that spells out what you would do in the case of a dispute? If not, you need to send a letter giving the translator "x" days to respond and correct mistakes. I would definitely initiate the Paypal dispute, because that can be retracted at anytime, and from personal experience with E-bay Paypal disputes takes f-o-r-e-v-e-r and a miracle to get your money back. Besides that, if you pay someone else to fix the translation, then sue the translator for that portion.
Just my own two cents. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Arnaud HERVE
France
Local time: 08:40
English to French
+ ...
Well, after reading many pages on this thread, I was surprised by some answers, and I am still not sure it is perfectly safe to post one's case here.
Some answers seemed to me like, let's imagine Bizukeigo was in the streets running away from a gang of yakuza, he slipped on a banana skin, and then was beaten by the yakuza. And then people come to him, bleeding on the ground, and say "Ha ha, Bizukeigo, you were so stupid not to watch out for banana skins while you were running".
... See more Well, after reading many pages on this thread, I was surprised by some answers, and I am still not sure it is perfectly safe to post one's case here.
Some answers seemed to me like, let's imagine Bizukeigo was in the streets running away from a gang of yakuza, he slipped on a banana skin, and then was beaten by the yakuza. And then people come to him, bleeding on the ground, and say "Ha ha, Bizukeigo, you were so stupid not to watch out for banana skins while you were running".
No, Bizukeigo-San, use your own common sense. Of course you are entitled to get your money back. Of course.
I also support the proposal that has been made to exclude said translator from Proz. I think it could even be argued whether Proz itself could sue the translator for such a gross behaviour, and a threat to professional reputation. I am not totally sure about that, but it can be argued.
I would not have been so severe about a poor wretch coming from nowhere and trying to make some quick bucks to survive, but, an already experienced translator? With already several positive entries? No way! Totally unacceptable! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 08:40
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | 3 sigma or more event ? ... | Feb 22, 2009 |
The probability that
1. A translator with good WWW delivers MT translation
2. without proofreading it
3. The agency pays minutes after receiving the work
is ... well, let's check
1. How many bad apples of this kind among Prozians? I rate it 1*sigma (see below), which is darn negative on my colleagues here
2. Stupid - I rate it with again a pessimistic 1 * sigma
3. I cant believe this is possible, but must believe the thread owner - ... See more The probability that
1. A translator with good WWW delivers MT translation
2. without proofreading it
3. The agency pays minutes after receiving the work
is ... well, let's check
1. How many bad apples of this kind among Prozians? I rate it 1*sigma (see below), which is darn negative on my colleagues here
2. Stupid - I rate it with again a pessimistic 1 * sigma
3. I cant believe this is possible, but must believe the thread owner - 3 * sigma
As the three events do not depend on each other, we can multiply their probabilities, i.e. add sigmas to the incredible, fat score of 5: this means 1 in a million (check the table below). Like 1 in a million Prozians.
Fact is there's for sure not that many ProZ members,so my math is wrong somewhere. My hope is with #3. If there's any agency of this kind doing EN-SL-DE pairs, give me a ring. I use my own brain to translate, and, yes, I do check my work. And even if you pay within 5 hours and not 5 minutes, hey, I will not mind.
Regards
Vito
The probability for n*sigma events (two-sided Z distribution)
sigma P
1 63%
2 9%
3 0.6%
4 1,27E-04
5 1,15E-06
6 3,95E-09
PS: "Si non è vero, è ben trovato": for all practical purposes (FAPP) I know this is no fairy tale. But from some frequency on things start to turn improbable, "unnormal" in the Gaussian sense. The fact however that the thread has had about 5000 views so far, just shows how attracted we are by this kind of stories.
[Edited at 2009-02-28 19:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Fouad Hassaan
Türkiye
Local time: 09:40
Member (2005)
English to Arabic
+ ...
| PROZ.com Action | Feb 27, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
I also support the proposal that has been made to exclude said translator from Proz. I think it could even be argued whether Proz itself could sue the translator for such a gross behaviour, and a threat to professional reputation. I am not totally sure about that, but it can be argued.
I would not have been so severe about a poor wretch coming from nowhere and trying to make some quick bucks to survive, but, an already experienced translator? With already several positive entries? No way! Totally unacceptable!
I think you are right about this and PROZ.com should take some action to filter all members. This may affect PROZ revenue at the short-range but will recover soon with great results. This filtering can be made by investigating agencies inputs for their translators or even making a paid real test for every language pair and using a professional evaluator. This will help to energize the market as well. I think it will be a great step from PROZ.
| | | | Uwe Schwenk (X)
United States
Local time: 01:40
English to German
| Professional image | Feb 27, 2009 |
Zoe Green wrote:
"You know very well that the market price for the work I did is at least 3 times higher so you can't expect perfect quality that even a software specialist could not guarantuee."
Once the job has been accepted, the rate doesn't matter - the translation should be treated with as much care and attention as a translation for which a rate twice or three times as high has been agreed.
I put as much care into my voluntary translations as I do into jobs for my highest paying clients.
Thats the way to go.
Uwe
| | | | Сергей Лузан
Russian Federation
Local time: 09:40
German to Russian
+ ...
| To clarify the case | Apr 12, 2010 |
Biscaygo wrote:
we found it was a simple machine translation and using a low quality software:
What would you do?
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2009-02-13 13:30 GMT]
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2009-02-13 13:30 GMT]
I would require to pay the money back. It's a case of improper conduct which is intolerable in business relations. But I am not so sure that the person can be punished and/or sued for that monkey business unless MTing is proved. If so (confirmed by the third independent respected party), then it goes far beyond the limits of business ethics and suggested severe measures may be justified. Anyway prozian LWAs and ratings in this particular case should be reconsidered from the viewpoint of their origin.
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