| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | A Proz.com member delivered a machine translated project Thread poster: Fernando Larrazabal
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| I don't believe in Kudoz Mafias... | Feb 13, 2009 |
Peter Bouillon wrote:
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Sorry Peter, but anybody who is active in Kudoz knows who of the people appearing in the Kudoz leaders list does offer useful help and who responds at random. Anybody sufficiently interested can divide the number of points between the number of answers.
My point exactly. It is not the naked numbers that count. There's nothing wrong with participating in KudoZ, as long as it isn't taken as a mechanic, automatic, infallible shortcut way of assessing translator aptitude. Some human interpretation is still needed. And the same is true for all the other indicators, such as WWA entries.
I agree that Kudoz is not an immediate reflection of someone's capabilities. We disagree in that I understood from you that you believed in Kudoz Mafias whose members systematically support each other in Kudoz answers to gain Kudoz points. I have been in Kudoz for many years and never saw anything but frank, open, sometimes harsh honesty. Anybody seeing signs of Kudoz Mafias should report it to Proz staff immediately as it is literally against the rules.
| | | | | Include your own WWA entry | Feb 13, 2009 |
Bizukeigo wrote:
But why should the translator give us the money back if it was just a matter of style?
In this case, rather than the money, the important fact was that somebody had been caught red-handed committing a crime and refused to accept it. Does it say something about the human condition?
The translator doesn’t claim to follow ProZ.com Professional Guidelines but has positive feedback and WWA from outsourcers.
Hm... I know this sounds terrible, each and everyone of us must think twice before offering services we are not able to carry out to professional standards: I suggest that, given the evidence that MT was used, you make your own WWA, negative entry about the translator.
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Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Hm... I know this sounds terrible, each and everyone of us must think twice before offering services we are not able to carry out to professional standards: I suggest that, given the evidence that MT was used, you make your own WWA, negative entry about the translator.
I'm not sure we can do that unless we received a request for WWA entries and that translator is not going to ask us for one!
[Edited at 2009-02-13 22:42 GMT]
| | | | | It is not possible to enter a negative WWA entry | Feb 13, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Hm... I know this sounds terrible, each and everyone of us must think twice before offering services we are not able to carry out to professional standards: I suggest that, given the evidence that MT was used, you make your own WWA, negative entry about the translator.
It would be a good idea - except that currently there is no way to enter a negative WWA entry...
(Yep, one of my pet peeves...)
I hope staff reads this thread and could offer some ideas.
On this particular case:
1. I agree that the outsourcer could have been more careful. There was absolutely no need to pay without checking the quality. It is very hard to get your money back after payment made - unless there is a detailed clause about it in the contract, payment for services means acceptance in many cases.
2. The outsourcer claims MT was used, the translator claims the changes are only stylistic. Perhaps a 3rd party evaluation is needed to clarify the issue.
Katalin
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| Negative WWA entries... | Feb 13, 2009 |
Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
It would be a good idea - except that currently there is no way to enter a negative WWA entry...
Hm... Isn't it a bit unfair that outsourcers cannot make a negative WWA entry but we can make negative BlueBoard entries about them?
If a second, independent (maybe a Certified PRO person) evaluates the issue and indeed detects a careless attitude on the side of the translator (not just stylistic or preferential things, but sheer carelessness), shouldn't an outsourcer be able to make a negative entry?
| | | | | Precisely my point | Feb 13, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
It would be a good idea - except that currently there is no way to enter a negative WWA entry...
Hm... Isn't it a bit unfair that outsourcers cannot make a negative WWA entry but we can make negative BlueBoard entries about them?
If a second, independent (maybe a Certified PRO person) evaluates the issue and indeed detects a careless attitude on the side of the translator (not just stylistic or preferential things, but sheer carelessness), shouldn't an outsourcer be able to make a negative entry?
Yes, it is unfair, and yes, they should.
I repeat:
I hope staff reads this thread and could offer some ideas.
| | | | Marina Soldati 
Argentina
Local time: 17:46
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| A translation test is the best way to assess a translator | Feb 13, 2009 |
Bizukeigo wrote:
Text test?
The translator was not going to be “smart” enough to send a machine translation for a test.
I don't think a 300-word sample test will really show a translator's quality. I wouldn't outsource 50k words to somebody I haven’t work with before but this job contained around 3600 words.
I´ve used translation tests to gather teams for big projects and, believe me, in 300 words you can assess three important aspects of translation (at least for me)
- Understanding of the source text
- Knowledge of the subject matter
- Writing style, suitable for the job
Terminology is just a matter of providing glossaries.
My 2 cents
Marina
[Edited at 2009-02-13 17:33 GMT]
| | | | legalads
India
Local time: 02:16
English to Hindi
+ ...
Hi Bizukeigo,
Explanation about the payment you gave her is acceptable. However, your general reply to raised points, do not involve anything about the style guide, transliteration list or not to translate list. Before you charge the opposite party you should make clear that, you are correct in the procedure. More important is that, like me most of the translators participating in this discussion must not have noticed plural/singular of Translator. Including me, everybody is concerned abou... See more Hi Bizukeigo,
Explanation about the payment you gave her is acceptable. However, your general reply to raised points, do not involve anything about the style guide, transliteration list or not to translate list. Before you charge the opposite party you should make clear that, you are correct in the procedure. More important is that, like me most of the translators participating in this discussion must not have noticed plural/singular of Translator. Including me, everybody is concerned about what has happened with you, and please get know that no one writing here is wasting time, but trying to help someone to bring out of the situation, so please do not think I replied you just because I thought that it was related to me or to the whole community. ▲ Collapse
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waschbaer
Germany
Local time: 21:46
French to German
+ ...
| Check people's answers | Feb 13, 2009 |
I think the only possibility of evaluating someones capability is to check the actual answers people have given. There you can see if it's a sensible answer or if the chosen answer is correct at all. I only participate in Proz.com for 2 months now and have seen more than one wrong answer chosen. And therefore I can't agree with Tomás.
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Sorry Peter, but anybody who is active in Kudoz knows who of the people appearing in the Kudoz leaders list does offer useful help and who responds at random. Anybody sufficiently interested can divide the number of points between the number of answers.
I agree that Kudoz is not an immediate reflection of someone's capabilities. We disagree in that I understood from you that you believed in Kudoz Mafias whose members systematically support each other in Kudoz answers to gain Kudoz points. I have been in Kudoz for many years and never saw anything but frank, open, sometimes harsh honesty. Anybody seeing signs of Kudoz Mafias should report it to Proz staff immediately as it is literally against the rules.
It probably also depends on the language combination you're active in. I absolutely agree with Peter, that WWAs and Kudoz points can't be an indicator if someone is a good translator or not. If you have enough friends on Proz.com, anybody could write a good review for you. Therefore, I think all this reference stuff is such a waste of time for everybody. So far, I've mostly worked for direct clients, not agencies. I wouldn't bother them with writing reviews for me. They are busy and translation is not their business.
The best proof still is a small and paid translation. Because then, a translator will show his abilities and he/she is motivated because it's serious paid work. I believe that unpaid test translations are a waste of time as translators have to do them besides their paid work. Guess what gets priority and more care. Another issue is that there are outsourcers who sell such unpaid "test translations" to their clients. I don't like to work for free!
| | | | | Tools and procedures | Feb 13, 2009 |
Blue Board, WWA and other feedback mechanisms are tools provided to the community for risk management and other processes.
Site users should not rely solely on entries posted there. They should form their own opinions concerning outsourcers or service providers from their experience as professional players in the industry, and rely on their own professional procedures.
Regarding WWA, there are plans for allowing negative and "may be" entries, but is no deadline yet for... See more Blue Board, WWA and other feedback mechanisms are tools provided to the community for risk management and other processes.
Site users should not rely solely on entries posted there. They should form their own opinions concerning outsourcers or service providers from their experience as professional players in the industry, and rely on their own professional procedures.
Regarding WWA, there are plans for allowing negative and "may be" entries, but is no deadline yet for this implementation.
On the issue of "KudoZ mafias", if you suspect wrongdoing in concrete cases please submit the evidence to the relevant moderator or submit a support request.
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 21:46
French to German
+ ...
| The best of British to you! | Feb 13, 2009 |
Nancy Lynn Bogar wrote:
...but these are errors, and not a matter of style. And the currency string is not in the right format... 59,95$ (not to mention Valorisez en... this definitely smells of MT to me.)
I'm sorry this happened to you.
Nancy
[Edited at 2009-02-13 15:19 GMT]
+1 here. I did not feel personally concerned by the title, but it conveyed the idea of more than one translator delivering MTed target files. This issue has been solved.
The best of British to you for getting your money back!
I hope the colleague in question will be honest enough to post here and to admit their errors and to settle what can be settled (yes, I am somewhat old-fashioned ).
Laurent K.
[Edited at 2009-02-13 18:42 GMT]
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Bizukeigo wrote:
Thomas G. Lane
Thomas G. Ruelle (voie).
Joan L. Mitchell
Jeanne L. Mitchell
example.c
Exemple.c
Price US$59.95,
Valorisez en US$59.95,
GO CIS:GRAPHSUP
ALLEZ CIS:GRAPHSUP
Service Mark property of CompuServe Incorporated.
une propriété de Marque de Service de CompuServe S.A.
I have nothing to add regarding the fact that Bizukeigo shouldn't have relied solely on the translator's WWA, but the translator's claim that mistakes like these are a matter of style is outrageous. What style guide on earth says that you should translate someone's surname or first name? Does this translator translates "George W. Bush" as "George W. Buisson", then?
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| The other side | Feb 13, 2009 |
What happened to you is interesting to hear.
Fortunately, it is not common.
Sometimes the opposite happens.
A translator spends a lot of time on a job, finally sends the translation and never gets paid. After confirmation of file reception, it sometimes occurs that the client is suddenly blind and deaf, and is not able any more to answer to your requests, and you don’t have any clue about what is going on with the job, and obviously with the payment.
| | | | | The answer .... | Feb 13, 2009 |
... is "Reverso"
Bizukeigo wrote:
Anyone has an idea what program produced the following amusing samples of this 'matter of style' job? (Original English text followed by the 'French translation')
The first Google hit (on my end here) when searching for "machine translation engine".
I entered
Joan L. Mitchell
which was promptly translated as
Jeanne L. Mitchell
and Angelina Jolie
as Beautiful Angelina.
Mind you, poor Brad Pitt turned into Clou sans tête Pitt!
johanna
| | | | | The answer is | Feb 13, 2009 |
[quote]Johanna Timm, PhD wrote:
... is "Reverso"
[quote]
Thanks a lot!
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