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Joues de finitions
décalage
Feb 8, 2014 10:54
10 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

monocourant

French to English Tech/Engineering Transport / Transportation / Shipping EN-UK
This is about Italian railways

"locomotives électriques monocourant 3 kV".

Single phase? I am almost sure that that is correct and have found a number of citations to support it e.g.
"www.lococarriage.org.uk/eurlypwrsply.htm‎

DC 3 kV. Spain^, Italy^, Slovenia, Belgium^, Baltic States, Russia^, Poland, Czech ... single phase supplied by means of Overhead Line Electrification (OHLE)."
but would appreciate confirmation from a techie.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 single power / system
5 +1 single-voltage
3 DC (power supply)
3 single phase current
References
Ref:

Discussion

Johannes Gleim May 2, 2014:
No problem at all Thanks
B D Finch (asker) May 2, 2014:
@Johannes Thanks for drawing my attention to this again. I was very unsure of this at the time, but it does seem now that Didier's answer really was right because it covers all the modifications that are being ruled out in the text. There is also the fact that "single-voltage" should have been "mono-tension" (as in a couple of your references).
Johannes Gleim May 2, 2014:
@ B D Wouldn't you enter the correct pair into the glossary? See your answer to my proposal!
B D Finch (asker) Feb 10, 2014:
Yes The supply in question (apparently the whole of the traditional Italian network) is 3 kV DC and this is only referring to the power of the catenary supply. However, from the context, I am certain that "monocourant" is not intended to specify that it is DC, but rather whether or not the locomotive is equipped to run without major modification under other supply regimes (i.e. ones that may differ in either or both voltage rating and whether they are AC or DC). The job is delivered with a Translator's Note and I am waiting for the Client to reply re their preferred terminology of the choice I have provided.
Johannes Gleim Feb 10, 2014:
DC I think, it's DC as some lines in Italy use 3 kV d.c. current for traction. This is the only clue that we talk about DC supply, what excludes any"phases".
But in principle, BD Finch is right. Either DC or AC (single phase, in no case three phases). I also suppose that the 3 kV refers to the power supply, not to any internal voltages or current systems inside the locomotive.
Didier Fourcot Feb 9, 2014:
Monocourant can be 3kV DC Or can be 1,5kV DC in France, or 25kV AC, the meaning is: can use ONLY this sort of power supply.
Most "monocourant" locomotives in France used to be 1500 V DC from 1920 on, later they have been 25 kV AC, but they cannot be used under the same catenaries.

Regarding phases, there can be only one for power supply: there is one catenary (attempts with sliding rails for 3-phase are before 1920), and return path through the rails or ground. So the power supply is DC or single-phased AC.

BUT this does not mean that the motors are not 3-phased, since the advent of the thyristors (1970) then the IGBT (1990) the motors are powered through an inverter that may create any type of current
Johannes Gleim Feb 9, 2014:
@ BD Finch You may ask a moderator to reopen the question if you like to reconsider the selected answer. Anyway, you can enter into the glossary what you want.
B D Finch (asker) Feb 9, 2014:
@Donal I am afraid that I cannot omit the translation of 'monocourant' because that could seriously affect my client's interests. I am convinced that you are correct about the 3kV power supply being DC, but also now of the opinion that 'monocourant' does not mean DC. I think now that what it does mean is that the locomotive is only equipped for operation using a particular power supply regime (in this case, 3 kV DC). Certainly, use of the term "phase" here would be incorrect. However, though the above is the translation I shall use, I shall note that the client should check that this is correct.
DLyons Feb 9, 2014:
@Barbara I'm now getting confused myself. I still believe that the 3kV power supply is DC and hence that the term 'phase' should be avoided here. Personally, I'd be inclined to omit a translation of the word 'monocourant' and make a note to that effect.

Of course, I back Didier against wikipedia any day but I've come across references to "locomotives monocourant" - see e.g. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matériel_moteur_des_chemins_de_...

This in turn says that e.g. the Bombardier TRAXX is "tri-phasés asynchrones" which doesn't seem to tie in with Didier's research. So I haven't arrived at anything better than avoiding the problem :-(
B D Finch (asker) Feb 8, 2014:
Still confused! Though I think that Donal is certainly right about this system being a DC one, that is not necessarily the meaning of "monocourant" here. The reference: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Système_d'électrification_ferro... while not referring directly to monocourant, gives the following explanation about "matériel bicourant", which, by extrapolation, certainly does support Didier's answer:

"À la frontière entre deux systèmes d'électrification ferroviaire, le manque de matériel capable d'utiliser les deux courants ou les conditions d'exploitation peuvent conduire à la mise en place d'installations commutables. Situées dans une gare ou sur un faisceau de triage ces installations permettent de simplifier le changement de locomotive ou à des trains bicourants de changer de système utilisé à l'arrêt.

Les gares frontières de Quévy (Belgique), Aix-la-chapelle ou Vallorbe sont des cas de gares commutables pour permettre le changement de matériel. Dole-Ville a été une gare commutable (25 kV/1,5 kV) pour la même raison et finalement la section de séparation a été déplacée quand le matériel bicourant était suffisamment répandu."

Proposed translations

+2
1 hr
Selected

single power / system

"Monocourant" means only one power system, explanation of bicourant, tricourant, etc:
http://sncf.ratp.free.fr/locoelec.htm
So in France a "monocourant "could be DC 1500V or AC 25kV, more details about poly-courant here, which explains that "bicourant" is more general than "bitension" or "bifréquence":
http://belph80001.free.fr/Locoelec_Section/poly.htm

Alstom large French manufacturer uses "double power" for "bicourant":
www.alstom.com/press-centre/fr/2014/2/alstom-fournira-le-sy...
www.alstom.com/press-centre/2014/2/alstom-to-supply-power-s...

Märklin uses "dual system":
http://www.maerklin.ch/fr/produits/detailsz.html?art_nr=8848...
http://www.maerklin.com/en/products/detailsz.html?art_nr=884...

ABBcargo not very consistent uses "dual-current":
http://www.sbbcargo.com/fr/gb04_f.pdf
http://www.sbbcargo.com/en/gb04_e.pdf
or "dualcurrent"
http://www.sbbcargo.com/fr/gb05_f.pdf
http://www.sbbcargo.com/en/gb05_e.pdf
or even "dual-voltage"


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 heures (2014-02-08 13:34:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Erreur sur la référence Alstom, celle-ci sur le pendolino est la bonne (double power system):
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/fr/2010/10/Allegro-le-tra...
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2010/10/press-releases-pe...
but when searching for "bicourant" ("bicourant" site: alstom.com) then changing language to English other document mention "bi-current" :
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2001/12/ALSTOM-receives-o...
or "dual current" and "triple-current":
http://www.alstom.com/transport/news-and-events/events/archi...
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2007/3/Alstom-receives-Pr...

So "single current" is also used:
http://www.dragtimes.com/video-viewer.php?v=k63ZmnT446A&feat...
http://www.google.co.in/patents/US4641234
perhaps attracted by French wording

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 heures (2014-02-08 17:26:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I do not thing this is a problem of electricity: "moncourant" is NOT about intensity, should be dumb anyway: the current is the most variable value in traction: voltage is reasonably constant, frequency as constant as possible.

"courant" has to be understood as "type of electrical current", not as intensity, just like "power" in "single power" is not in Watts, but the type of power supply of the machine,

The important concept is single, dual or triple, "single current" is just as correct as "single power" and does not confuse Amps with Watts
Reference:

http://www.trains-et-trainz.fr/pages/locomotive-cc-40100-bicourant-quadri-tension

Note from asker:
Thanks Didier, but I think I need advice from one of our colleagues who actually knows about electricity. Any sources that confuse power, current, voltage and phase have suffered from bad translation services.
Thanks for the clarification and see my comment in the discussion section. I now think that you are on the right track. ;)
Peer comment(s):
agree GILLES MEUNIER
16 hrs
agree Daryo
22 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Didier."
45 mins

DC (power supply)

The 3 kV is a DC overhead power supply.

An example is the Siemens Desiro range - see PDF. In Russia, this model has a dual power facility at 25 kV.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2014-02-08 13:42:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yup, but the main point is that is DC, hence doesn't have a phase!
Reference:

http://www.energy.siemens.com/us/pool/hq/power-transmission/Transformers/downloads/E50001-U410-A32-V1-7600_069_traction-Trafo_en_final.pdf

Note from asker:
But DC is "courant continu" or "CC"?!
Thanks! Having done some further research, I see that Italy and Poland do, indeed, have 3 kV DC power on their railways, so you do seem to be right.
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

single phase current

or AC current
Example sentence:

The term “single phase” is a counterpoint to another kind of power system called “polyphase”

Reference:

https://www.google.ca/#q=single+phase+current

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/1.html

Note from asker:
Thanks Lorraine, but, as I stated above, I am looking for advice from people with expertise in the field. I'm perfectly capable of googling this myself and did so before posting the question.
I am sorry if my previous comment may have been unclear. By "expertise in the field" I do not mean translation experience, I mean academic and work experience in the field of electrical engineering or railways.
Something went wrong...
+1
1 day 24 mins

single-voltage

Les termes « monocourant » et « mono-tension » sont échangeables et peuvent comprendre « monophase » (single phase) en cas de traction électrique. Mais la plupart des systèmes 3000 V en Europe (l’Italie inclue) sont à courant continu.
Voir http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_courants_utilisés_en_...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_systems_for_ele...

locomotive a courant alternative {monophasé} = Einphasenwechselstromlokomotive = a.c. {single phase} locomotive
locomotive monocontinue = Gleichrichterlokomotive = locomotive with a.c./d.c. motor converter set
locomotive polycourant = Mehrstromlokomotive = multi-system locomotive
(Lexique général des termes ferroviaires (Union Internationale des Chemins de fer)

Area Electric traction / Types of vehicles
IEV ref 811-02-26
en single-phase a.c. motor vehicle
a motor vehicle to which electric power is supplied from an external source of single-phase alternating current
fr véhicule moteur monophasé
véhicule moteur dont l'alimentation électrique est fournie par une source extérieure à courant alternatif monophasé
http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&iev...

Area Electric traction / Types of vehicles
IEV ref 811-02-28
en dual voltage motor vehicle
a motor vehicle to which electric power may be supplied by one or other of two external sources of the same current type and frequency but of different voltages
fr véhicule moteur bi-tension
véhicule moteur dont l'alimentation électrique peut être fournie par l'une ou l'autre de deux sources extérieures de même nature de courant et de même fréquence mais ayant des tensions de valeurs différentes
http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&iev...

1971 Launch of the BB 15000 single-voltage locomotive equipped with powerful semiconductors
transport.alstom.com:80
1971 Lancement de la locomotive BB 15000 mono tension équipée de semi conducteurs de puissance
transport.alstom.com:80

Hanhwa Koros had already been awarded a contract for the supply of 17 single-voltage trains.
europa.eu
Hanhwa Koros s'était déjà vue attribuer le marché de la fourniture de 17 rames à voltage unique.
europa.eu

http://www.linguee.fr/anglais-francais/traduction/single vol...

Une locomotive électrique est une locomotive mue par des moteurs électriques. Ceux-ci sont alimentés soit, cas le plus général, par une ligne de contact aérienne, soit par un troisième rail (notamment dans les métros), ou parfois par des accumulateurs de bord. Une locomotive électrique peut être monocourant (alimentée par un seul type de courant) ou bien polycourant, c'est-à-dire apte à utiliser plusieurs types de courant (le plus souvent bi- ou tricourant).
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive_électrique

Les BB 17000 sont des locomotives électriques monocourant 25 kV de la SNCF.
:
Ces locomotives sont issues des BB 25500 mais sans l'équipement d'alimentation électrique en courant continu.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_17000

The SNCF Class BB 17000 B-B AC electric locomotives built between 1965 and 1968. It performs suburban duties on railway lines around Paris, notably VB2N carriages. They are monophase locomotives (running off 25 kV AC overhead supply) and have the nickname "danseuses" or "dancers".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_BB_17000

designated CP LE 5600 series is in fact a monocourant version (25kV AC only) of the Iberian gauge sub serie of the Renfe S/252 series (S/252 016-075).
http://www.railcolor.net/index.php?nav=1404928&lang=1#.UvdQ9...

Certains trains IC Bruxelles-Midi – Luxembourg sont toujours assuré par des automotrices de la série Break (mono courant 3 kV).afin d’offrir un plus grand nombre de places assises (3+2 en 2è CL) aux voyageurs circulant lors des pointes du matin et du soir. Sinon il sont assurés par des automotrices AM96 *monocourant* en dehors des heures de pointe du matin et du soir.
:
Some trains IC Brussels Midi – Luxembourg still propelled provided by the Break series (mono current 3 kV ) to provide a greater number of seats ( 3 +2 2nd CL ) passengers traveling during peak . morning and evening . If it is provided by railcars * AM96 * monocourant outside peak hours in the morning and evening ..
http://stephanerevel.free.fr/?p=12024

Nota: J'ai travaillé 10 ans en tant d'ingénieur 'électricité dans la domaine ferroviaire.
Note from asker:
Oh dear! You were just too late for the points. I should have waited. However, I think I may need to change the glossary entry. I am surprised at the use of "monocourant" in English language references that you cite. However, couldn't "single voltage" fail to cover the possibility of locomotives being equipped to operate on networks with different current type and frequency?
Peer comment(s):
agree Lorraine Dubuc
5 hrs
Merci !
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

7 hrs
Reference:

Ref:

Note from asker:
Thanks kashew. Your reference seems to point to a definition as "single phase", however I still think that Donal is right about it meaning "DC". I have certainly seen some evidence that Italian railways use a DC supply for this voltage, rather than a single phase supply.
Something went wrong...
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