Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
La guerre primitive fait signe, par son universalité, non pas vers la nature, mais vers la culture
English translation:
Primative warfare is, due to its universality, indicative not of nature, but of culture.
Added to glossary by
Christopher Crockett
Dec 29, 2002 16:05
21 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term
la guerre primitive fait signe
French to English
Art/Literary
Archaeology
archaeology
La guerre primitive fait signe, par son universalité, non pas vers la nature, mais vers la culture.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Mar 24, 2011 12:23: Stéphanie Soudais changed "Term asked" from "sentence" to "la guerre primitive fait signe"
Proposed translations
+3
3 hrs
Selected
Primative warfare is, due to its universality, indicative not of nature, but of culture.
I think the major problem we are having here is, as William pointed out, that the sentence, as written, just doesn't make any sense, logically.
However, it does make sense, linguistically.
Therefore, I would say that the translator's job here is not to try and figure out what the hell the guy *means* or *meant to say* (unless that is not clear linguistically), but just to translate what the sentence he wrote actually *says,* in plain English.
Let the reader (French or English) make a judgement about the quality and clarity of the author's thought (or lack thereof) by what it is that the guy actually *wrote,* not what the translator thinks he *should* have written.
Jane's construction --"is indicative of"-- seems to me to be a good one; though "is a sign of" works almost as well and is closer to the literal French. (Although "is a sign of...nature" doesn't quite work, in English.)
Unless the construction "fait signe...vers" has a special sense which I'm not aware of (which is perfectly possible, though that still wouldn't help the inherently paradoxical logical sense of the sentence, hélas).
I find this sentance rather typical of much French scholarly writing : il marche *en principe.*
Sounds good, but don't think about it too hard or you're likely to get a mal a` te^te.
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Note added at 2002-12-29 21:07:20 (GMT)
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Ngmc\'s suggestion (below) as to broadening the meaning of the \"faire signe vers\" construction should be persued by him/her or anyone else with a command of French phrasiology more complete than mine (easy enough to do).
Certainly a quick glance at Robert, etc., seems to indicate that such a meaning is not impossible.
However, William\'s objection still holds, it seems to me : if \"universal,\" isn\'t \"primative warfare\" [what *is* that, btw??] more a question of \"nature\" than of \"culture\"?
Francis & Nikki\'s pleas for more context are --as all pleas for more context-- certainly relevant here.
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Note added at 2002-12-30 17:59:21 (GMT) Post-grading
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Contradicting my original statement, I\'m not at all sure that Ngmc\'s attempt to make more sense out of the author\'s \"thought\" via a closer, more idiomatic reading of the French isn\'t a reasonable line of persuit.
Seems to me that getting to the gist of the meaning of this one sentence requires a reading of it within the much larger context of the fellow\'s oeuvre --both to see where he\'s comming from \"ideologically\" and to get a better feel for the way he uses his language to express his theses.
For that reason, I wish that the answer hadn\'t been chosen quite yet.
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Note added at 2002-12-30 18:00:15 (GMT) Post-grading
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But, thanks anyway, MSH.
However, it does make sense, linguistically.
Therefore, I would say that the translator's job here is not to try and figure out what the hell the guy *means* or *meant to say* (unless that is not clear linguistically), but just to translate what the sentence he wrote actually *says,* in plain English.
Let the reader (French or English) make a judgement about the quality and clarity of the author's thought (or lack thereof) by what it is that the guy actually *wrote,* not what the translator thinks he *should* have written.
Jane's construction --"is indicative of"-- seems to me to be a good one; though "is a sign of" works almost as well and is closer to the literal French. (Although "is a sign of...nature" doesn't quite work, in English.)
Unless the construction "fait signe...vers" has a special sense which I'm not aware of (which is perfectly possible, though that still wouldn't help the inherently paradoxical logical sense of the sentence, hélas).
I find this sentance rather typical of much French scholarly writing : il marche *en principe.*
Sounds good, but don't think about it too hard or you're likely to get a mal a` te^te.
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Note added at 2002-12-29 21:07:20 (GMT)
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Ngmc\'s suggestion (below) as to broadening the meaning of the \"faire signe vers\" construction should be persued by him/her or anyone else with a command of French phrasiology more complete than mine (easy enough to do).
Certainly a quick glance at Robert, etc., seems to indicate that such a meaning is not impossible.
However, William\'s objection still holds, it seems to me : if \"universal,\" isn\'t \"primative warfare\" [what *is* that, btw??] more a question of \"nature\" than of \"culture\"?
Francis & Nikki\'s pleas for more context are --as all pleas for more context-- certainly relevant here.
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Note added at 2002-12-30 17:59:21 (GMT) Post-grading
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Contradicting my original statement, I\'m not at all sure that Ngmc\'s attempt to make more sense out of the author\'s \"thought\" via a closer, more idiomatic reading of the French isn\'t a reasonable line of persuit.
Seems to me that getting to the gist of the meaning of this one sentence requires a reading of it within the much larger context of the fellow\'s oeuvre --both to see where he\'s comming from \"ideologically\" and to get a better feel for the way he uses his language to express his theses.
For that reason, I wish that the answer hadn\'t been chosen quite yet.
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Note added at 2002-12-30 18:00:15 (GMT) Post-grading
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But, thanks anyway, MSH.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Sarah Walls
1 hr
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Thanks, Sarah.
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agree |
Noel Castelino
: And what if "faire signe vers (à??)" meant something like "to nod at" (or even "interpeller") ? In other words: As a universal phenomenon, PW engages/challenges/entails a dialogue with/etc... culture, not nature. Just a thought.
1 hr
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And a pretty good one, which you should persue in your own answer.
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agree |
Peter Coles
: The translation that seems to me to most elegantly capture this rather odd musing.
2 hrs
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Thanks, Peter. I'm still not sure whether or not Ngmc isn't on to something which might remove some of the oddity from the curious musing, however.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
38 mins
primitive warfare signifies the seeds of culture not those of nature
the way I see it
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Mark Nathan
: Don't you usually sow seeds? Not that "sow" would particularly work either.
40 mins
|
neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: Cluttering up an already muddled thought (assuming that what we're dealing with here is a coherent thought) is not productive.
2 hrs
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sorry to be so unproductive, I tried my best, but when you are no good your best is not much
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+5
1 hr
By reason of its universality,
primitive warfare is evocative of culture, not of nature.
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Note added at 2002-12-29 17:20:14 (GMT)
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This is a paradoxical line of reasoning: if primitive warfare is universal, i.e. found everywhere, then you\'d think it could be explained as part of human nature rather than culturally specific.
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Note added at 2002-12-29 17:20:14 (GMT)
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This is a paradoxical line of reasoning: if primitive warfare is universal, i.e. found everywhere, then you\'d think it could be explained as part of human nature rather than culturally specific.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Simon Charass
1 min
|
Thanks.
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agree |
NancyLynn
32 mins
|
agree |
Christopher Crockett
: I agree with your seeing this as a paradox. Like many French sentences, this one makes perfect sense until you try and figure out what the hell it actually is trying to say. Il marche "en principe."
2 hrs
|
agree |
Peter Coles
: A good analysis.
5 hrs
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agree |
Pierre POUSSIN
: Yes, but "by reason of" is slightly...heavy, no?
15 hrs
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+4
1 hr
Primitive warfare points toward culture not nature due to its universality
faire signe=to point or indicate
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Note added at 2002-12-29 17:21:30 (GMT)
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OR
Primitive warfare is indicative of culture not nature due to its universality.
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Note added at 2002-12-29 17:22:34 (GMT)
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FINAL: faire signe: is indicative of
I think it\'s a good idea to keep the index-type reference, faire signe as in a sign, ie semiotics
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Note added at 2002-12-29 17:21:30 (GMT)
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OR
Primitive warfare is indicative of culture not nature due to its universality.
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Note added at 2002-12-29 17:22:34 (GMT)
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FINAL: faire signe: is indicative of
I think it\'s a good idea to keep the index-type reference, faire signe as in a sign, ie semiotics
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Mark Nathan
5 mins
|
agree |
NancyLynn
28 mins
|
agree |
Pascale Dahan
: I think it would make it clearer to point out that it is due to it's universality. i.e. 'Primitive warfare, due to it's universality, points to culture and not nature'. A bit clearer, no?:)
1 hr
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agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: I like the use of "point toward" as being the best rendering of "faire signe vers". I feel the whole might read better if the universality bit started the ball rolling on this rendering.
15 hrs
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+1
2 hrs
The universality of primitive warfare is rather more indicative of culture than nature.
Although I agree with Francis that to get into the spirit of the text, a bigger chunk of it might help inspire.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: This *may* be what the guy meant to say, but "universality" is not the subject of the sentence, as we have it --"warfare" is. Even though it doesn't make sense that way, as William points out. Garbage In, Garbage Out : translate the thing as written.
1 hr
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There is a bit of poetic licence in my version. It's intentional. Fitting in the "par son universalité" to any English rendering requires a fair bit of contortion otherwise. A degree of compromise, but not a perversion of meaning, I hope!
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agree |
Yolanda Broad
: Nothing wrong witn an active construction of the *deep semantic meaning* of the sentence: parenthetical inclusion of an agent may be attractive in French, but it's heavy in English. ;-)
7 days
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+1
5 hrs
Faire signe vers...
In every example I can find, "faire signe vers" means what the contributors here are saying: "to indicate" or "to point to".
Could it be that author actually wanted to say "faire signe à" ? That was what I meant in my message to Christopher. But perhaps I was clutching at a straw. :-))
We do need more context.
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Note added at 2002-12-29 21:46:19 (GMT)
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But if \"faire signe vers\" can be understood as \"interpeller\", then everything falls into place more or less:
\"The fact that primitive warfare is universal (i.e. that there are no exceptions), raises questions about culture and its role and effectiveness. It does not raise questions about nature which, as we all know, is \'red in tooth and claw\'.\"
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Note added at 2002-12-29 22:02:22 (GMT)
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Would I be exaggerating if I said that the crux of the sentence lay in the preposition \"vers\" ?
Could it be that author actually wanted to say "faire signe à" ? That was what I meant in my message to Christopher. But perhaps I was clutching at a straw. :-))
We do need more context.
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Note added at 2002-12-29 21:46:19 (GMT)
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But if \"faire signe vers\" can be understood as \"interpeller\", then everything falls into place more or less:
\"The fact that primitive warfare is universal (i.e. that there are no exceptions), raises questions about culture and its role and effectiveness. It does not raise questions about nature which, as we all know, is \'red in tooth and claw\'.\"
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Note added at 2002-12-29 22:02:22 (GMT)
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Would I be exaggerating if I said that the crux of the sentence lay in the preposition \"vers\" ?
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Christopher Crockett
: I think that you may be on to something here, Ngmc. But the the only way to get to the bottom of it is to read a large section of this guy's text, see what the hell he's up to, in general.
20 hrs
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If MSH can't give us any more context, then we have to assume that your answer is the most logical one.
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17 hrs
Its universality marks primitive war as a result of culture
rather than of nature
18 hrs
The primitive warfare, by its universality, directs toward clashes of culture, not of nature.
I am curious if the author is ..French. A French native would not use "non" before "pas vers la nature". In appropriate French, the phrase would sound more like:
"La guerre primitive,par son universalité, fait signe pas vers la nature, mais vers la culture".
In the actual form, the phrase is "heavy".
"La guerre primitive,par son universalité, fait signe pas vers la nature, mais vers la culture".
In the actual form, the phrase is "heavy".
Discussion