| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Turn-key translations? Thread poster: writeaway
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| free and flagged | Jul 20, 2009 |
ViktoriaG wrote:
Well, when the things developed on the web are simply free applications, I agree with you that this is how things are usually done. However, the turnkey job system is not a mere application, and it has implications way beyond what is normally developed on the Web. We are talking professional services, payment processing, rate fixing, etc., and we are also talking about taking a cut on people's work (who are already paying for membership) all the while denying the intention to become a translation broker.
Agree with you Viktoria.
When Web services and applications are tested live, they are offered for free during the testing period. No payments are involved and no explicit or implicit contracts are formed. Typically, the testing period is defined (start and end date) and clearly flagged as such (pre-launch, beta testing etc.)
I took a look at the turnkey translation page and the (succinct) FAQ. There is no hint whatsoever that this is something new, under development, being tested, and subject to change without notice.
Proz is entering into and brokering contracts, with all the legal ramifications that this engenders. Matters not whether these contracts represent one cent or millions of dollars. Proz may also be misleading service providers who may not be aware that the invoicing system may not fulfill all the legal obligations the service provider's country of residence impose.
Paula, I hope you printed out each page of the process; hats off to you for testing this and providing the details with which to debunk bamboozling marketing prose.
Patricia
| | | | Özden Arıkan 
Germany
Local time: 10:40
English to Turkish
+ ...
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
Flippancy isn't exactly going to improve things
Henry D wrote:
By the way, congratulations on becoming the leading user of turnkey translations. 
This is a serious matter. Or at least it is to the overwhelming majority of people in this thread.
[Edited at 2009-07-20 05:53 GMT]
Exactly! I, for one, need a convincing answer from this website's owner: what makes you think we will pay to use a venue, then sell our work for non-negotiable sweatshop rates, pay 1/3 commission to a non-agency, and entrust our money for 2 weeks with a non-bank?
[Edited at 2009-07-20 15:43 GMT]
| | | | Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
Germany
Local time: 10:40
English to German
+ ...
| There is no plan at all! | Jul 20, 2009 |
Henry D wrote:
* There is no big plan here. This is a very minor feature, not even a feature yet, more of a brainstorm.
I'm at a loss for words. My impression is that there is no plan at all.
Your reply to the concerns voiced in this thread doesn't convince me.
Best,
Aniello
| | | | | I'm confused .... | Jul 20, 2009 |
Henry D wrote:
This is nothing secretive going on. Some members of the P group have seen some potential in the idea and have joined Jason in brainstorming and experimenting. Unless Jason already has enough people in his ad hoc group, I imagine anyone here who sees potential and wants to join in the effort of fleshing out this idea will be welcomed to the group and given access to all related information. (Whether they have a P or not.)
.... it happens often here, so please feel free to sort out my interpretation of this.
In order to be allowed to see what's going on in the other thread, I'd have to see potential in the idea too.
Hmmm, now that's a bit like putting the cart before the horse, because I can't really assess something I don't have all the information about, can I?
But OK, whatever it takes. I can fake that. I hereby categorically state that I think that turncoat translations is a truly wonderful idea. Happy now?
Now, for the second time, can I see the thread and be given access to all related information please?
Or wait, would that not exceed the number of the 'ad hoc group'?
I'm a paying member for crying out loud.
[Edited at 2009-07-20 14:14 GMT]
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Eric Hahn (X)
France
Local time: 10:40
French to German
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| Conflict of interests | Jul 20, 2009 |
ViktoriaG wrote:
I would also like to explain my WTF earlier. Doesn't anybody find it strange that each time the community asked to ban job posts with ridiculous rates, we were told that ProZ will not get into the illegal practice of rate fixing? Isn't there a teeny weeny integrity problem here?
There might be a conflict of interests: Is it possible to serve translation companies and freelancers equally ?
Do we really have to make a choice, Henry ? I'm against rate fixing, but maybe it's time to introduce basic rates which would serve freelancers, too
[Modifié le 2009-07-20 12:59 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 10:40
French to German
+ ...
| Can we talk of "price fixing"? | Jul 20, 2009 |
The current practice of TA's is to look for translators willing to accept their budget, be it 0.02, 0.08, 0.16 or more currency units per source word. Translators are always free to accept or decline the rates offered. I don't see any difference between this method and the automatic ProZ device looking for suitable translators among P colleagues.
Can we therefore talk of "price fixing" when one, let's say intermediary tells translators what they will be paid on the one hand, and t... See more The current practice of TA's is to look for translators willing to accept their budget, be it 0.02, 0.08, 0.16 or more currency units per source word. Translators are always free to accept or decline the rates offered. I don't see any difference between this method and the automatic ProZ device looking for suitable translators among P colleagues.
Can we therefore talk of "price fixing" when one, let's say intermediary tells translators what they will be paid on the one hand, and tells the clients what they will have to pay on the other hand, adding that these prices are non-negotiable?
Price fixing is of course illegal in most countries of the world, but is very difficult to prove, unless you have for example one company with subsidiaries/franchises who will force said subsidiaries/franchises to sell the company's products at the same price no matter where they are located.
This is an entirely different matter as (if I get you well) fixing minimal rates, which would imposed on outsourcers wishing to post jobs on ProZ.
And do not forget that outsourcers looking for freelancers may also go to the translators' directory in order to find a more competetitive rate than the one offered by ProZ, albeit without the special features offered along with the Turnkey system.
Laurent K.
[Edited at 2009-07-20 10:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | paula arturo
United States
Local time: 04:40
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Also confused... | Jul 20, 2009 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
Henry D wrote:
This is nothing secretive going on. Some members of the P group have seen some potential in the idea and have joined Jason in brainstorming and experimenting. Unless Jason already has enough people in his ad hoc group, I imagine anyone here who sees potential and wants to join in the effort of fleshing out this idea will be welcomed to the group and given access to all related information. (Whether they have a P or not.)
.... it happens often here, so please feel free to sort out my interpretation of this.
In order to be allowed to see what's going on in the other thread, I'd have to see potential in the idea too.
Hmmm, now that's a bit like putting the cart before the horse, because I can't really assess something I don't have all the information about, can I?
But OK, whatever it takes. I can fake that. I hereby categorically state that I think that turncoat translations is a truly wonderful idea. Happy now?
Now, for the second time, can I see the thread and be given access to all related information please?
Or wait, would that not exceed the number of the 'ad hoc group'?
I'm a paying member for crying out loud.
[Edited at 2009-07-20 11:31 GMT]
I'm just as confused and would also like more information. The information available gives me the impression Proz is testing the waters to see if it can attract translation clients and use its current database for outsourcing work to some (but not all) of its paying members for what seems to be a generous commission. The idea of Proz biding for and allotting work to its current clients poses serious ethical and legal implications. Henry has failed to address any of the more serious issues involved in this matter. In all honesty, I find his explanation vague and superficial.
When answering, Henry and his staff should address the following concerns:
1. Proz.com has information about our rates. On our profile, we can choose whether to make this information public or not, but the info is there and the site staff can see it whenever they want. If Proz were to be outsourcing, this would give them a strong competitive edge (over its own clients!) and enable all sorts of unethical pricing practices.
2. Those who have used the proz.com online invoicing system have provided crucial information about their clients. If Proz were to be outsourcing, this information could constitute leads for attracting clients to itself. Once again, this would constitute an abuse of the information we have all, in good faith, entrusted upon Proz with the intention of providing better service to OUR clients, not with the intention of having the translation portal, to which we are paying to expand our businesses, use it to compete with us!
3. The proz.com guiding principles state Proz is a “translation workplace.” The link that clarifies the “scope” of this definition is unavailable; to comply with point 8 of these principles (i.e. the site’s unilaterally stated principals of clarity and transparency) this needs to be fixed ASAP. Proz needs to clearly state its intention and scope.
4. Although the launch of Proz certification was made available to all of us, the site failed to mention its intention to create a system by which work would be routed directly to Proz certified members. The perks of being a certified member were not (and after searching the site I can confirm are STILL not) fully disclosed. As Henry points out, this idea has not been widely used yet and has only been used by two clients. However, this does not change the fact that a handpicked group was selected to try it out and the rest of us were not given an equal opportunity to try it, consider it, or even express an opinion about it. Considering we are all paying members, we are all entitled to the same information. Proz has the right to have different kinds of memberships with different benefits. However, it has the obligation to fully disclose all pertinent information about the benefits of each kind of membership to all of its members, as well as all requirements, pricing, and other relevant information that we, their clients – although Henry seems to forget this in one of his statements – would need in order to make an informed decision about our interest in upgrading our membership.
5. Finally, Proz also needs to address why information was restricted and, in order to comply with its own guiding principles, needs to amend this situation and provide a full, detailed statement as to what exactly this new service constitutes.
I strongly urge Henry and his staff to clearly and seriously address these concerns. This matter will not be taken lightly and evasive replies will not suffice.
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Özden Arıkan wrote:
Exactly! I, for one, need a convincing answer from this website's owner: what makes you think we will pay to use a venue, then sell our work for non-negotiable sweatshop rates, pay 1/3 commission to a non-agency, and entrust our money for 2 weeks with a non-bank?
mm
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paula arturo wrote:
1. Proz.com has information about our rates. On our profile, we can choose whether to make this information public or not, but the info is there and the site staff can see it whenever they want. If Proz were to be outsourcing, this would give them a strong competitive edge (over its own clients!) and enable all sorts of unethical pricing practices.
2. Those who have used the proz.com online invoicing system have provided crucial information about their clients. If Proz were to be outsourcing, this information could constitute leads for attracting clients to itself. Once again, this would constitute an abuse of the information we have all, in good faith, entrusted upon Proz with the intention of providing better service to OUR clients, not with the intention of having the translation portal, to which we are paying to expand our businesses, use it to compete with us!
| | | | | Reply from site staff | Jul 20, 2009 |
Hi everyone,
What Henry said is right. This is an early test of some new job posting features, and a lot of details still have to be fleshed out based on feedback and data from real-world usage.
I've added a lot of new FAQs in response to the questions raised in this thread. Please take a look at these FAQs and let me know if something is still unclear.
... See more Hi everyone,
What Henry said is right. This is an early test of some new job posting features, and a lot of details still have to be fleshed out based on feedback and data from real-world usage.
I've added a lot of new FAQs in response to the questions raised in this thread. Please take a look at these FAQs and let me know if something is still unclear.
Service provider FAQ
Client FAQ
The thread in the Certified PRO forum discussing these new features is part of a post to a private forum--like any private forum topic, it will not be made public. I think pretty much everything discussed there has already been brought up in this thread anyway.
Please let me know if you see potential in this and are willing to explore the possibilities.
Thanks,
Jason ▲ Collapse
| | | | Cetacea
Switzerland
Local time: 10:40
English to German
+ ...
| Translators' website? | Jul 20, 2009 |
PRen wrote:
And folks, here's the big one - (star five) "ProZ.com serves translation companies and has no intention of ever becoming one" - if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are, it's a duck.
[Edited at 2009-07-20 01:44 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-07-20 01:52 GMT]
Exactly! What's more, I was under the illusion that this was (once) supposed to be a translators' website, so shouldn't it serve translators rather than translation companies? At least first and foremost? By not undermining the market even further?
------------------
Unfortunately, you're absolutely right, cjguy. And it's not that I haven't known all along...
[Edited at 2009-07-20 18:48 GMT]
| | | | CJG (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 10:40
Dutch to English
+ ...
| Illusion being the appropriate word | Jul 20, 2009 |
Cetacea wrote:
PRen wrote:
And folks, here's the big one - (star five) "ProZ.com serves translation companies and has no intention of ever becoming one" - if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are, it's a duck.
[Edited at 2009-07-20 01:44 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-07-20 01:52 GMT]
Exactly! What's more, I was under the illusion that this was (once) supposed to be a translators' website, so shouldn't it serve translators rather than translation companies? At least first and foremost? By not undermining the market even further?
don't you think?
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| As usual, it is optional | Jul 20, 2009 |
Hi all,
Thanks for the additional posts. To reiterate my position, in the event this feature begins to amount to anything, I believe it will be appropriate to get into the details raised here. In the meantime, there seems to me to be some potential here for a service of some value to some members -- and some members are agreeing -- but the fact is that it remains to be seen, and this feature could just as easily disappear as remain.
If you are not among those who has an... See more Hi all,
Thanks for the additional posts. To reiterate my position, in the event this feature begins to amount to anything, I believe it will be appropriate to get into the details raised here. In the meantime, there seems to me to be some potential here for a service of some value to some members -- and some members are agreeing -- but the fact is that it remains to be seen, and this feature could just as easily disappear as remain.
If you are not among those who has any interest in this, your position is respected. ProZ.com's mission is to provide tools and opportunities for you, but it will always be up to you which of them, if any, you use.
If you are among those who have expressed grave concerns about an experiment of this nature even being undertaken, I can understand your fears, but really, I think you can relax a bit. 15 to 20 euros of work per day -- with one translator meeting one new translation customer in the process -- is not going to bring down the industry or your livelihood any time soon. (And don't rule out the possibility that turnkey may be a useful thing even for you. Would it be the end of the world to be invited to consider completing a short job, with the potential to meet a new client in the process?)
Jason may post (or may not), but that is all I have to say for now. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 10:40
English to German
+ ...
| No further comment, thank you | Jul 20, 2009 |
Hi Jason,
I've added a lot of new FAQs in response to the questions raised in this thread. Please take a look at these FAQs and let me know if something is still unclear.
Thanks for clarifying ProZ.com's intentions and related business model.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 05:40
French to English
+ ...
| replies from Henry and Jason | Jul 20, 2009 |
Yet again, a feature is implemented, howls of justifiable outrage ensue, and Henry and Jason wait until the forum works its way off the front page and then give us their best "aw shucks, come on guys" routine, assure us there is no bigger plan, it's just an idea percolating around the water cooler and they're throwing it out there to see if anyone's interested.
Uh huh.
What they fail to address is the lunacy of charging PAYING members (and members who have volunteered ... See more Yet again, a feature is implemented, howls of justifiable outrage ensue, and Henry and Jason wait until the forum works its way off the front page and then give us their best "aw shucks, come on guys" routine, assure us there is no bigger plan, it's just an idea percolating around the water cooler and they're throwing it out there to see if anyone's interested.
Uh huh.
What they fail to address is the lunacy of charging PAYING members (and members who have volunteered hundreds of hours of their time) for the privilege of getting work, at rock-bottom rates.
And they're making 33% "overhead". ▲ Collapse
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