| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Dropping another client with crummy payment policies Thread poster: Steven Capsuto
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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X) 
Poland
Local time: 21:20
English to Polish
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| please double-check | Dec 17, 2010 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Steven Capsuto wrote:
A longtime client of mine (a big agency in Europe) just informed its providers of its new payment policy: end of month plus 60 days.
Well, I have just learnt that since I now live in the Netherlands, I'm going to have to insist that Dutch agencies pay me within 30 days, because by law I have to pay my VAT over to the taxman very, very regularly (regardless of whether I have actually received the invoiced money).
Ask your accountant (or look in the VAT Act) if there is an alternative scheme. In my country, if you're a "small taxpayer", you can account for VAT on a quarterly basis. Moreover, you can choose to pay your VAT for the quarter in which you actually received the money (or the period in which 90 days have elapsed from date of the invoice or service, whichever is earlier).
I use both mechanisms (quarterly reconciliation, cash basis), so if I send the work on 1 September and get paid on 15 October (fourth quarter underway already!), VAT isn't due until 25 January. It's infinitely cool because I'm the one getting free credit - my client has paid me the VAT on the invoice, yet the tax office is willing to wait.
[Edited at 2010-12-17 11:49 GMT]
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:20
Flemish to English
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| Credit? Forget it. | Dec 17, 2010 |
My brother is an electrician, who insists on getting paid after completing of his work.
My dentist also expects payment when his treatment is finished.
A lot of talk has been going about payment terms, but who is so bold to do the same.
Not so difficult to put an encrypted password on the translation and a link to moneybookers or any other immediate payment tool. Delivery"On time" and payment "On-time".
Who dares to put on their profile in flashing letters:
<... See more My brother is an electrician, who insists on getting paid after completing of his work.
My dentist also expects payment when his treatment is finished.
A lot of talk has been going about payment terms, but who is so bold to do the same.
Not so difficult to put an encrypted password on the translation and a link to moneybookers or any other immediate payment tool. Delivery"On time" and payment "On-time".
Who dares to put on their profile in flashing letters:
"Credit? Forget it!" (with a link to the E.U.-guideline on late payments) and "No CAT-hagglers".
This might avoid a lot of discussions time and again.
[Edited at 2010-12-17 12:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | John Rawlins
Spain
Local time: 21:20
Spanish to English
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| Voters are guilty too. | Dec 17, 2010 |
It should not be forgotten that in some countries (I am thinking of Spain) it is the government itself that is the slowest payer - and this arrogant attitude is jumped on by others as an excuse for slow payment.
As voters, we must accept some of the blame.
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 21:20
English to Polish
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Well, I'd think that as taxpayers it's in our interest for the government to order quality services but pay as little and as late as possible (on pre-agreed terms, of course). I'm sorry, the government is not there for our welfare as a profession. It's supposed to serve the taxpayers. Given Spain's budget woes, I hope that it won't go belly-up, and that translators who work for central institutions will have all of their invoices paid.
[Edited at 2010-12-17 15:54 GMT]
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John Rawlins
Spain
Local time: 21:20
Spanish to English
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| Paying late is bad for the economy | Dec 17, 2010 |
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
Well, I'd think that as taxpayers it's in our interest for the government to order quality services but pay as little and as late as possible (on pre-agreed terms, of course). I'm sorry, the government is not there for our welfare as a profession. It's supposed to serve the taxpayers. Given Spain's budget woes, I hope that it won't go belly-up, and that translators who work for central institutions will have all of their invoices paid.
[Edited at 2010-12-17 15:54 GMT]
I can't agree with you Krzysztof that it is in our interests as taxpayers that the government pays as late as possible. The government is the largest single consumer of goods and services and by buying on long payment terms the economy is being denied billions of euros of liquidity.
In Spain, some government enterprises are very good payers, but other sectors delay payment for years. Small businesses are often forced into bankruptcy or into making redundancies. This policy of paying late also gives an immense advantage to businesses that are partially owned by banks as they can wait longer than all of their competitors - and the indirect effect is to reduce competition and raise prices.
And on top of the economic damage, this policy gives an excuse for tens of thousands of businesses not to pay their suppliers. All in all this is a cancer.
| | | | | To answer your simple question | Dec 17, 2010 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I wonder if that EU law is specific to the extent of encompassing custom personal services, or it just covers commodities and merchandise. I mean, if I went to a dentist, a chiropractor, a car mechanic, a shrink, or called a plumber or an electrician to my home in Europe, would I have 30 days to pay?
Certainly plumbers and electricians do not always demand immediate payment. They have to draw up an invoice reflecting the actual work done, post it, wait for me to write and post the cheque. That's how it works round here. All in all, they get paid about a month later (obviously, you can pay cash on the spot, with all that such a transaction implies). I pay my car mechanic with my credit card, thereby, if timed correctly, getting me about 45 days credit. Ditto dentist.
My understanding, however, is that the EU directive is in fact B2B related. That does not imply that all B2C transactions are in contrast immediate cash only transactions.
| | | | | That was my point | Dec 17, 2010 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Certainly plumbers and electricians do not always demand immediate payment. They have to draw up an invoice reflecting the actual work done, post it, wait for me to write and post the cheque. That's how it works round here. All in all, they get paid about a month later (obviously, you can pay cash on the spot, with all that such a transaction implies).
If most of their bill involves hardware they bought on credit, they are extending that benefit to you. It's part of their business setup.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I pay my car mechanic with my credit card, thereby, if timed correctly, getting me about 45 days credit. Ditto dentist.
This was my point. If PayPal, Xoom, et al. accept credit cards, why don't those "temporarily penniless" clients use them to pay right on the spot?
If they are agencies, the answer is that they need the cash they received up-front or COD from the end-clients to pay their bills, and it's much cheaper to borrow from their vendors (viz. translators) at zero interest, than from a bank.
The fact is that low self-esteem translators who lend money at no interest have "spoiled" these clients (viz. agencies), getting them addicted to live on the interest-free money borrowed from translators.
The habit has widespread in some countries, so you see people who haven't got a clue on translation setting up an agency, simply as a way to live happily on the postitive cash flow.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Certainly plumbers and electricians do not always demand immediate payment. They have to draw up an invoice reflecting the actual work done, post it, wait for me to write and post the cheque. That's how it works round here. All in all, they get paid about a month later (obviously, you can pay cash on the spot, with all that such a transaction implies).
If most of their bill involves hardware they bought on credit, they are extending that benefit to you. It's part of their business setup.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I pay my car mechanic with my credit card, thereby, if timed correctly, getting me about 45 days credit. Ditto dentist.
This was my point.
My own point is essentially this: while I have no wish to deny there is an issue worth discussing here, I find comparisons or analogies, especially with B2C transactions, particularly pointless and irritating. Discuss the situation on its own merits, or with genuinely comparable situations, or don't bother. It is at best distracting, detracting from the genuine points made. At worst, utterly misleading.
See also http://www.cbavington.com/Thoughts/TransEconomicContext.shtml
If PayPal, Xoom, et al. accept credit cards, why don't those "temporarily penniless" clients use them to pay right on the spot?
Because they are not universal? Unlike, say, bank accounts. I wouldn't touch a client who wanted to use PayPal with a barge pole. Amateurish and shady, in my humble opinion (I may be misinformed, but by the same token, I don't need to use it so I'm not concerned). But it would certainly be a solution for some, I agree.
If they are agencies, the answer is that they need the cash they received up-front or COD from the end-clients to pay their bills, and it's much cheaper to borrow from their vendors (viz. translators) at zero interest, than from a bank.
It's a point of view. You know there are industries where suppliers are pretty much obliged to accept credit terms of 360 days (a couple of months ago, I translated a credit insurance policy where such are the maximum credit terms allowed). Lucky we're not them, eh? Chin up, it could be worse
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| The problem is greed and laziness | Dec 17, 2010 |
John Rawlins wrote:
As voters, we must accept some of the blame.
This is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to comment on this:
There is some degree of greed and a pinch of laziness when an SME is offered a big business by a much larger company and they accept payment terms of 180 days and more in exchange of a large business figure.... with a very small margin though.
I think Spanish SMEs should definitely be more ready to say no and be proactive in looking for more customers. It much too easy to live a life of misery competing in price and working for just a couple of large customers than having to defend your product and service in front of a larger number of smaller customers who are more "high-maintenance" but could be ready to pay more.
To me, the apparent benefit of a large contract with large Spanish corporations is just that: apparent.
| | | | | Just wondering... | Dec 19, 2010 |
... what about other legislations than EU's? Is there any obligatory payment deadline stated in other countries' laws? Within EU, I can tell the client, "look here, according to the law you have to pay within 30 days" (if he accepts is quite another thing of course) but what can I do with clients "outside"?
Charlotte
@ José and Charlie: My mother in Germany uses to pay craftmen's bills within one week but always takes a cash discount of 2% ... See more ... what about other legislations than EU's? Is there any obligatory payment deadline stated in other countries' laws? Within EU, I can tell the client, "look here, according to the law you have to pay within 30 days" (if he accepts is quite another thing of course) but what can I do with clients "outside"?
Charlotte
@ José and Charlie: My mother in Germany uses to pay craftmen's bills within one week but always takes a cash discount of 2% ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 21:20
French to German
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| 100% penalty | Dec 20, 2010 |
sailingshoes wrote:
On top of that some of these agencies are hurling unilateral demands at their translators. I received one today which listed 30 must-do stipulations including one that says I am bound to 'implement any suggestions made by the client'. They mean their client.
Any? I shudder to think!
[Modificato alle 2010-12-20 15:09 GMT]
Have you heard of unilateral 100% penalties (meaning: translators get paid exactly zero point nought for their work) implemented by some no-name agencies on behalf of their own clients - also agencies, but reputable ones with no dirty hands and a shiny, gold-plated facade?
Compared to this, implementing any suggestions made by the client seems rather tame...
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 21:20
French to German
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| Possible improvements | Dec 20, 2010 |
Williamson wrote:
"Credit? Forget it!" (with a link to the E.U.-guideline on late payments) and "No CAT-hagglers".
This might avoid a lot of discussions time and again.
I have taken one of the major CAT tools out of my profile, so I get less and less requests containing any contractual requirement to use said tool.
I am thinking about a similar filter about a possible No-Credit Policy.
| | | | Trans-Iberia (X)
Local time: 21:20
| standard practice | Dec 20, 2010 |
this is standard practice in Spain. well, actually not, the standard is more like 4 months. there is a tiny minority of agencies that pay within two months, but most take over 3 months, and some simply never pay until you hound them, all of which is actually the fault of spanish companies and government, which all take scandalous amounts of time to pay up their debts. but then, of course, they want all work done in record time, cancel jobs at the drop of a hat and are, in general, completely fla... See more this is standard practice in Spain. well, actually not, the standard is more like 4 months. there is a tiny minority of agencies that pay within two months, but most take over 3 months, and some simply never pay until you hound them, all of which is actually the fault of spanish companies and government, which all take scandalous amounts of time to pay up their debts. but then, of course, they want all work done in record time, cancel jobs at the drop of a hat and are, in general, completely flaky about everything. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Two good ideas | Dec 20, 2010 |
Williamson wrote:
"Credit? Forget it!" (with a link to the E.U.-guideline on late payments) and "No CAT-hagglers".
This might avoid a lot of discussions time and again.
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
I have taken one of the major CAT tools out of my profile, so I get less and less requests containing any contractual requirement to use said tool.
I am thinking about a similar filter about a possible No-Credit Policy.
How about Proz including two more fields in translators' profiles:
Discount policy:
( ) gives discounts on fuzzy matches
( ) does not give discount on fuzzy matches
( ) other: (field for text)
On the last one, for instance, I give repetitions for free on jobs above 5,000 words. No, please don't complain. I made a bundle on some large jobs that had 70% repetitions, without charging for them. Parts lists, mostly no-brainers.
Standard interest-free payment term:
( ) COD
( ) 1 week
( ) 2 weeks
( ) 30 consecutive days
( ) Other: (field for text)
If a COD or up-front collecting agency needs cash flow, they'll know exactly where to look for, and then in what language pairs they'll need to find translation jobs. Likewise, they won't pester professional translators, but only the (amateur) loan sharks who translate.
[Edited at 2010-12-20 15:51 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-12-20 15:52 GMT]
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