| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Withdrawing job offers unfairly Thread poster: Dijana Evans
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Dijana Evans
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:32
English to Croatian
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TOPIC STARTER | Reality check!! | Oct 21, 2010 |
Wow, there's a lot of cynics out there!
Firstly, at the risk of repeating myself from so many of my other posts, I never said there was anything official (or legally binding) about the original email, just that if you had received it you would atleast think your bid had been provisionally accepted, and that provided you met the outsourcer's provisions (i.e. by providing confirmation and confidentiality agreement within a reasonable period) the job was 'yours'. In this case, I wasn'... See more Wow, there's a lot of cynics out there!
Firstly, at the risk of repeating myself from so many of my other posts, I never said there was anything official (or legally binding) about the original email, just that if you had received it you would atleast think your bid had been provisionally accepted, and that provided you met the outsourcer's provisions (i.e. by providing confirmation and confidentiality agreement within a reasonable period) the job was 'yours'. In this case, I wasn't given enough time to respond to those provisions because, although the email was personally addressed to me, it was actually an email that had been sent to numerous translators (which again, in itself is not a wrong practice, but the translator shouldn't be tricked into thinking it's a personal email when it isn't).
Secondly, I don't think some of the 'cynics' out there realise that just because "things are the way they are", that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't (or shouldn't) be done better or more professionally.
Thirdly, I'm really not as worked up about this as half of you realise. I was annoyed yesterday, as any of you would be if someone dangled 720 euros in your face and then thrust it away and said "haha, too late!" Seriously, I've properly calmed down now and I'm moving on to bigger and better things. But you can tell which translators this has happened to before (i.e. the sympathetic ones) and which ones have yet to experience this fully! In answer to one such comment, yes I have had worse experiences with agencies before, but I think this was the costliest so far.
Lloyd ▲ Collapse
| | | | riafontes
Spain
Local time: 20:32
Portuguese to English
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| More comments | Oct 21, 2010 |
Although I am in this business (translation) for 22 years, only recently had I to enter in this world of competition. So I am learning (and fast) how it works. And, at this stage, I am just not sure if I want to remain in it. I think that the whole issue revolves around clear definitions of terms like professionalism, honesty, legality and alike. Just to give an example there is one phrase, among many others, (and this is not graffiti) written in Latin and Spanish on one of the internal walls... See more Although I am in this business (translation) for 22 years, only recently had I to enter in this world of competition. So I am learning (and fast) how it works. And, at this stage, I am just not sure if I want to remain in it. I think that the whole issue revolves around clear definitions of terms like professionalism, honesty, legality and alike. Just to give an example there is one phrase, among many others, (and this is not graffiti) written in Latin and Spanish on one of the internal walls of the Judicial building in Arrecife, Lanzarote that states "Not all that is legal is honest" and synthesizes the difficulty of finding an exact definition for those terms. To complicate the issue, in the modern word of globalization, what is accepted and valid in one country or region may be completely wrong in another. Let me make a statement first: I am totally in agreement with Lloyd's position, although I understand and respect also the remarks and advices of the other commentators who, by the way, took their time to read, analyze and give their opinion. The way I see it, there are now 2 types of translators although there is not a clear-cut definition who belongs to what. The old guard, working approximately for more than 15 years or so, and the young generation. About this issue I strongly recomend the reading of "WORDS FOR SALE" at http://translationcommentator.blogspot.com/2010/10/commodification-of-communication.html (initially recommended in a ProZ forum by Jeff Whittaker). What is now acceptable and normal was definitely not 20 years ago. The problem is that there is no recognized official Institution, at country level or in the industry, to provide the standard norms to legalize or condemn certain type of actions. So, we have to live with our own definitions and conscience. I think that everyone is responsible for their own actions and that we can all potentially receive a kick from a beast (you get my meaning, right?). To mention some other "funnies" I am faced with, it looks like it is a norm to refuse to send back the requested receipt of an e-mail, not to answer back to the quotation e-mail, in case it was nor accepted, with a thank you note (in my concept this is rude to say the least) or, worst of all, to impose in the request for a quotation that the payment is to be done 30, 45 and even 60 days after delivery of the translation. This simply means that all of us freelancers, who mainly live only from this job, have to finance those translation companies. And, since they are all over the world, nothing will guaranty that you will get paid and, that being the case, you have no legal possibility of collecting your money (even if it was possible, the legal fees and the time spent would not make it worthwhile). I really think we are all to blame by accepting those terms, whereby, more and more, they become standard due to the competition among translators.
There is no scrutiny, at least in Spain, if a company announced in the Internet is a legal one, registered properly and with the legal owners identified. Most of those companies I see in the Internet do not show who are the legal owners, the address of theirs headquarters nor the fiscal number attributed in that country.
In the short time I have been in Proz (less than a month), I already received a job that was a scam, I've seen requests for translation with delivery deadlines impossible to meet if you want to deliver at least a decent translation and one request for translation of several manuals being the first one translated for free!!!!! (I think this guy wanted to have all the manuals translated for free by accepting several translators and giving a different manual to each one of them), and a translating company that, after the quote, wanted to pay only 80% of it, keeping 20% for themselves (of course the invoice would be for the total amount which would probably mean that you have to pay your taxes on that amount), just to name the most relevant. "It's a war out there" just became "It's a war right here".
So Lloyd, you have my sympathy and you are not alone. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | How things are | Oct 21, 2010 |
Secondly, I don't think some of the 'cynics' out there realise that just because "things are the way they are", that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't (or shouldn't) be done better or more professionally.
I hope you're not assuming that just because some of us acknowledge "how things are" (in certain circumstances) means that we believe there is no alternative.
There are absolutely alternatives, and those are the clients/agencies that work on your terms, who have the same business (and ethical) principles as you. They are out there, and I am sure that most if not all of the "cynics" here will tell you that they have several long-term collaborations with just such clients.
What we are cynical about in particular is platforms such as Proz.com and the fact that they act as "enablers" to certain less professional agencies looking for shortcuts and monkeys to work for peanuts.
But you can tell which translators this has happened to before (i.e. the sympathetic ones) and which ones have yet to experience this fully!
I can't really speak for anyone else, but I'm fairly sure we are all very sympathetic to how you felt about what happened.
I think, however, that logic would suggest the reverse of your supposition: the more things like this happen to someone, the more cynical they become. It's a generalization of course, but I think you'll find it's one of those rules of life with a lot of truth behind it, and a lot of anecdotal evidence to back it up.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 15:32
Spanish to English
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| 720 euros for 16,000 words?????? | Oct 21, 2010 |
720 euros? Something is wrong. I thought you said the job was 16,000 words? Or were there 8,000 words of unpaid repeated text?
Lloyd & Dijana Evans wrote:
I was annoyed yesterday, as any of you would be if someone dangled 720 euros in your face
[Edited at 2010-10-21 14:03 GMT]
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Kevin Fulton
United States
Local time: 15:32
German to English
| I understand your frustration | Oct 21, 2010 |
I'm not going to get into issues of confidentiality, working with or without purchase orders. I can see how you were led to believe that you had been awarded the job, but ...
That said, you should not make an assumption about a job without the client (agency or otherwise) explicitly stating that you should proceed.
If you think about it, it's shocking that agencies -- companies in the business of communication! -- know little about clear communication.
| | | | Dijana Evans
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:32
English to Croatian
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TOPIC STARTER | Minimum rate | Oct 21, 2010 |
Hello Jeff
I thought that might raise a few eyebrows! We quoted a low rate as a special introductory offer, and also applied a volume discount for the size of the project. Obvously we weren't the cheapest offer though, because as someone else on here as suggested, it would appear the outsourcer received an even tastier offer from another translator while I was still printing off the confidentiality agreement!
Lloyd
| | | | Dragomir Kovacevic (X)
Italy
Local time: 21:32
Italian to Serbian
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| a special rate and a volume discount | Oct 21, 2010 |
Lloyd & Dijana Evans wrote:
Hello Jeff
I thought that might raise a few eyebrows! We quoted a low rate as a special introductory offer, and also applied a volume discount for the size of the project. Obvously we weren't the cheapest offer though, because as someone else on here as suggested, it would appear the outsourcer received an even tastier offer from another translator while I was still printing off the confidentiality agreement!
Lloyd
And you use all this financial terminology, like special introductory offer, volume discount - for a price scale offered on your proz page, already being low. For a Ltd. at least.
Your sober attitude. similar to the dance in "Alice in Wonderland", reminds me of liberal governmental economists in India, boasting how they succeeded in application of tightening the expenditures and adjust prices of primary materials, while in that very moment family cotton transformers started dying of starvation-they could not tighten their belts any more.
Dragomir
[Edited at 2010-10-21 14:38 GMT]
| | | | Kay Barbara
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:32
Member (2008)
English to German
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| It's all in the message... | Oct 21, 2010 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
720 euros? Something is wrong. I thought you said the job was 16,000 words? Or were there 8,000 words of unpaid repeated text?
Lloyd & Dijana Evans wrote:
I was annoyed yesterday, as any of you would be if someone dangled 720 euros in your face
[Edited at 2010-10-21 14:03 GMT]
Yes, I agree with Jeff: this seems to be horribly wrong (even though for me this is not the most important point about this scenario).
I assume that you have not worked with the agency in question before (as the contact was made via the ProZ job system) and therefore I really cannot understand why you would expect more "professional" (call it what you like) conduct from an agency sending you such an e-mail.
What should have set off your alarm bells:
1. They ask you to translate 14k words within 2 working days (I usually do not count the day on which a job offer was made, as I am usually not idly waiting for jobs). Anyway, even 3 days would be bad.
2. The client puts pressure on you ("I will call you within an hour to know your thoughts.")
3. They tell you to do things "asap"; maybe I am being a bit picky here, but since the level of English seems to be not too bad, the author could have opted for something friendlier (e.g. "at your earliest convenience" - sounds nice, can mean almost the same )
4. No payment terms (or were they provided?)
Judging from my experience with agencies, I would not have thought about pursuing this job; it simply is not what I regard as "professional".
Would "gentlemen" impose such terms on a business partner? I think not, so why expect a gentlemen's agreement? If you have no PO / contract, you don't have a job (this is my rule with first-time clients, trusted clients are a different matter altogether).
Maybe (as you said) things have changed in people's business conduct from the 20th or 21st century (I wouldn't know) but by now it should be fairly well-known that there are a lot of black sheep in this business, so everyone should adjust their (business) expectations accordingly.
At the end of the day you should be pleased that it's not you who has to put up with this outsourcer.
Warning: May contain traces of cynicism
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SirReaL
Germany
Local time: 21:32
English to Russian
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| Agree with Dragomir | Oct 21, 2010 |
Dragomir Kovacevic wrote:
And you use all this financial terminology, like special introductory offer, volume discount - for a price scale offered on your proz page, already being low. For a Ltd. at least.
Your sober attitude. similar to the dance in "Alice in Wonderland", reminds me of liberal governmental economists in India, boasting how they succeeded in application of tightening the expenditures and adjust prices of primary materials, while in that very moment family cotton transformers started dying of starvation-they could not tighten their belts any more.
Dragomir
Absolutely agree.
With all due respect, Lloyd, not only are you selling yourself short, but you are attracting the wrong kind of customers. Ones that will take advantage of you as soon as they can.
Don't ask for peanuts -- if you do better work than a monkey.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 15:32
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Introductory Rates | Oct 21, 2010 |
Over time, you will discover that this practice never works. If they are looking for low price, there is always someone who will quote lower. If you do get the job, they will never assign you future work at a higher rate. The type of customers who are willing to pay you .14-.18 a word would never hire you to work for them at .06-.08 because they would be extremely suspicious.
Lloyd & Dijana Evans wrote:
Hello Jeff
I thought that might raise a few eyebrows! We quoted a low rate as a special introductory offer, and also applied a volume discount for the size of the project. Obvously we weren't the cheapest offer though, because as someone else on here as suggested, it would appear the outsourcer received an even tastier offer from another translator while I was still printing off the confidentiality agreement!
Lloyd
[Edited at 2010-10-21 17:06 GMT]
| | | | LEXpert
United States
Local time: 14:32
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
+ ...
| On the other hand, perhaps the low offer was the problem | Oct 21, 2010 |
Lloyd & Dijana Evans wrote:
Hello Jeff
I thought that might raise a few eyebrows! We quoted a low rate as a special introductory offer, and also applied a volume discount for the size of the project. Obvously we weren't the cheapest offer though, because as someone else on here as suggested, it would appear the outsourcer received an even tastier offer from another translator while I was still printing off the confidentiality agreement!
Lloyd
You're just assuming that the winning offer was cheaper. Perhaps they were initially drawn to the low rate but then - as any reasonable agency was bound to do eventually - remained unconvinced from the details of your offer that you, or anyone for that matter, could provide a quality translation at that rate - and certainly not at an even lower rate. Thus the change of heart.
Ok, perhaps not the most likely scenario, but I'm sure stranger things have happened that an agency considering SOMETHING besides the rate...
Who knows.
| | | | riafontes
Spain
Local time: 20:32
Portuguese to English
+ ...
I just saw an additional problem. With globalization we may think that the working conditions are the same everywhere, which is not true. A monthly salary of 1.500 Euros in Portugal is considered a reasonable salary. Try that in Germany or France. So the rates may vary a lot without necessarily meaning lower quality. This may lead to the deterioration of the prices in general which will only benefits the intermediary and the final customer. I am sure they are laughing all the way to the ba... See more I just saw an additional problem. With globalization we may think that the working conditions are the same everywhere, which is not true. A monthly salary of 1.500 Euros in Portugal is considered a reasonable salary. Try that in Germany or France. So the rates may vary a lot without necessarily meaning lower quality. This may lead to the deterioration of the prices in general which will only benefits the intermediary and the final customer. I am sure they are laughing all the way to the bank! We may need a Translator's Union! ▲ Collapse
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Dijana Evans
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:32
English to Croatian
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TOPIC STARTER | Talk about off track... | Oct 21, 2010 |
I think the initial argument of this thread hasn't just gone off track - it's completely derailed, turned into a fish, and swam off down the nearest river!!
I gave the price I quoted to the client in a previous message to show how I felt justified in feeling extremely frustrated (to silence all the "just chill, man" cynics out there), not so my professional translation colleagues could dissect my company's pricing structure!
At the end of the day, I run a business just ... See more I think the initial argument of this thread hasn't just gone off track - it's completely derailed, turned into a fish, and swam off down the nearest river!!
I gave the price I quoted to the client in a previous message to show how I felt justified in feeling extremely frustrated (to silence all the "just chill, man" cynics out there), not so my professional translation colleagues could dissect my company's pricing structure!
At the end of the day, I run a business just like the rest of you all do, and I need to protect my bottom line. I learnt even before this that I was being undercut using the Proz bidding system, so I responded accordingly, as you need to nowadays in business. I will also learn from the debacle with this client, because in any business you need to stay on your toes and learn from adversity. It doesn't mean I never charge my full rate depending on the circumstances of the project and how I get the business through (i.e. Proz, TC or my own websites) and the initial investment in each of those sources. Frankly, all of this is (literally)my business and I won't be entertaining any more views on my pricing policy!!
Maybe I'm not as idealistic as I first thought! Please can I join the Translation Cynics Society now? If I get refused I would like to go for Translation Trade Union president!
Lloyd
[Edited at 2010-10-21 16:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | SirReaL
Germany
Local time: 21:32
English to Russian
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Lloyd & Dijana Evans wrote:
Frankly, all of this is (literally)my business and I won't be entertaining any more views on my pricing policy!!
Pardon me for taking your words at face value and offering an honest opinion. Good luck.
| | | | opolt
Germany
Local time: 21:32
English to German
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Lloyd & Dijana Evans wrote:
...
Secondly, I don't think some of the 'cynics' out there realise that just because "things are the way they are", that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't (or shouldn't) be done better or more professionally.
...
My thoughts exactly. It's one thing to behave in a completely naive way, but it's another one to throw your ethics into the dustbin right away, pretending everything is fine (unless you're at the point of starving).
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