| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13] > | translator blacklists Thread poster: Dan_Brennan
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DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
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| course of action | Nov 23, 2009 |
Hi Dan,
I do really think you'll be wasting your time compiling your blacklist of 'unreliable and bad' translators: the BB doesn't blacklist 'bad' companies, but temporary banes those which cannot solve some troubles at the moment.
Can you see the difference?
As a translator I have very little against agencies because I have very little to do with the... See more Hi Dan,
I do really think you'll be wasting your time compiling your blacklist of 'unreliable and bad' translators: the BB doesn't blacklist 'bad' companies, but temporary banes those which cannot solve some troubles at the moment.
Can you see the difference?
As a translator I have very little against agencies because I have very little to do with them) Yet I guess that translators are more open to injury, criticism and doubts than agencies. NB one even can't name a bad company until the staff say so.
To cut the long story short: I've met very respectable and reliable companies which did let their partners down in that very case. I also know whiz-experts who were of great service with flawless records, but in the very situations they did bad turn.
Once I wanted to send a student away because she was rather weak in translation. Just imagine what I felt seeing her a few months later as on of the most promising assistants!
So, your problem is 'bad' translators? Is it about skills or humanities? How do others overcome it? Maybe they use ProZ or look for outstanding/ foreign students? What else?
Dan, and what exactly you did to provide your Clients with the best possible service? Not sure, probably you're quite good as translator or anything, but if your agency cannot do what it *should* then I, if you don't mind, say you must be very lame as a manager.
Cheers)
P.S. The sense is like the Sun: it's always there, but one can't always see it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The issue is more complex | Nov 23, 2009 |
Dan Brennan wrote:
At what stage, if any, should an agency be entitled to ask a translator for a discount, or indeed refuse to pay them? If a translator produces a target text that is so substandard that it has to be redone completely, do they deserve to be paid?
If a plumber comes in to mend my toilet, and then completely fails to carry out adequate repairs, I would have no hesitation in refusing to pay them. Should an incompetent translator be treated any differently? Like it or not, our business - just like the plumbing profession and various other trades - is amok with cowboys. As Charlie indicates, it's all too easy to call yourself a translator when you are not one.
There is also a matter of specialty in translation, in terms of subject area.
Right now, I'm translating a 400-page technical book on my main specialty, HRD. Got to page 125 so far, and the dictionaries are collecting dust. Found four unquestionable errors in the text so far, and as it's the third edition, they had plenty of chances to check it over and over again. Having been a HRD professional myself, I'm using the very language HRD professionals speak in the target language.
However if it were about medicine for doctors, accounting for accountants, or finence for financists, I'd blacklist myself as a translator. Their specific language is not in my pairs.
It must be borne in mind that the translation's targeted audience - and not the author - should be used as a benchmark to select a translator. A prominent MD may write an article to tell every Tom, Dick, and Harry about the symptoms of some disease, so they'll know when they have it. Supposedly any translator worth their salt should be able to do it. However when the same doctor writes to his/her peers to explain treatment/surgery and their complications, a specialized translator is a must.
Some clients/agencies, in desperation, try to force translators far out of their comfort zone. Later, after the disgraceful outcome becomes reality, they want to cut on that translator's pay, to get some compensation, while it was their own mistake: "Bah, it's technical, but an experienced translator like you can certainly do it!" Sometimes flattery works. A translator must learn to defuse the internal effect of flattery.
Hiring the wrong specialist is the client's fault. Of course, a pharmacist may change a blown bulb, if you can't do it. But don't expect the butcher to fix your leaking toilet!
I know there are many bad translators around, but colleagues have already commented on that here. I take it as an ethical issue. I speak three languages that I don't translate. I've used them occasionally to negotiate projects in my pair. However I often see people posing as "translators" in my pair, knowing less about my working languages than I know of any amond these three I don't translate.
I just wanted to raise the specialty issue. A good translator in one area may be pretty bad with technical material about an unknown subject.
| | | | | Ins and outs | Nov 23, 2009 |
Hi again, Dan
Surely, I do not know the ins and outs of your operations (most of us don't).
My point is that a) *bad* translators accept assignments they are not able to deliver up to your expectations - shame on them; and b) are you sure you can accept and deliver large-scale assignments (40 languages, 10 translators, etc.)? You've mentioned your are a small outsourcer.
You need a huge team of reliable partners (or vendors, as they call us) to work on a 40-langua... See more Hi again, Dan
Surely, I do not know the ins and outs of your operations (most of us don't).
My point is that a) *bad* translators accept assignments they are not able to deliver up to your expectations - shame on them; and b) are you sure you can accept and deliver large-scale assignments (40 languages, 10 translators, etc.)? You've mentioned your are a small outsourcer.
You need a huge team of reliable partners (or vendors, as they call us) to work on a 40-language project.
Best regards,
Vidmantas ▲ Collapse
| | | | John Fossey 
Canada
Local time: 23:05
Member (2008)
French to English
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| Comparing Agencies and Translators | Nov 23, 2009 |
Why isn't there an AgenZ, where agencies share the names of their customers and translators with other agencies? To be completely fair to everyone concerned, they should be willing to not just post the names of their worst translators, but also the names of their best customers and the most dependable translators that they rely on, so that other agencies can know where to find good customers and translators. Similar to what the Proz BB does for translators, who often post glowing comments abou... See more Why isn't there an AgenZ, where agencies share the names of their customers and translators with other agencies? To be completely fair to everyone concerned, they should be willing to not just post the names of their worst translators, but also the names of their best customers and the most dependable translators that they rely on, so that other agencies can know where to find good customers and translators. Similar to what the Proz BB does for translators, who often post glowing comments about good agencies.
Or is there perhaps somewhat of a difference in the situation for translators and agencies? ▲ Collapse
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| Translator blacklists | Nov 23, 2009 |
Dan Brennan wrote:
Hi,
There have been ots of posts and threads over the years about the perennial problems relating to poor practices by translation agencies - bad rates, non-payment etc - and how to tackle these. ProZ, of course, has the Blueboard, which is an invaluable resource in this regard.
But, what about the converse problem? Translators who promote themselves as professionals and yet whose work is so poor that they have, effectively misled anyone who gives them work? Perhaps given that ProZ also promotes itself as a network for agencies now, there should be a reverse Blueboard on offer.
I ask because, as both a freelancer and the manager of a small agency, I have found myself facing both problems.
This will be controversial I am sure, as ProZ remains primarily a forum for translators... but as everyone knows, there are an awful lot of very bad translators out there who bring the profession into disrepute.
Interested in your thoughts.
May be, I can understand your point of view. Nevertheless, having been on both sides of the barrier, the first difference is the criterion used: Usually, when an agency is in a black list it is for payment delays. When a translator is in a black list it is usually due to poor translation quality problems. Consistently, we are probably comparing pears with apples.
On the other hand, to judge a translation quality is a very similar thing to the Schrödinger's cat paradox en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat. The proper observation of the translation modifies his quality and they will be as many qualities as observers and observations exist.
I believe that a full paid translation of 300 words is more than enough to know if a translator satisfies or not our expectations. As for the quality, we can only abide by objective criteria: spelling errors, grammatical ruels, etc. And, nevertheless, these also change with the time...
[Editado a las 2009-11-23 21:46 GMT]
| | | | Dan_Brennan
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER
[quote]José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Hiring the wrong specialist is the client's fault. Of course, a pharmacist may change a blown bulb, if you can't do it. But don't expect the butcher to fix your leaking toilet!
I agree with you here, and with much of the rest of your eloquent post, José.
Thankfully, I've not yet hired a butcher to fix my toilet.... the problem is that there are a lot of individuals who present themselves as bona fide translators, and boast the credentials to match, but who turn out to be nothing more than word-butchers, whose linguistic carve-ups have to be flushed down the toilet.
| | | | Dan_Brennan
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | how to win friends and influence people | Nov 23, 2009 |
DZiW wrote: Dan, and what exactly you did to provide your Clients with the best possible service? Not sure, probably you're quite good as translator or anything, but if your agency cannot do what it *should* then I, if you don't mind, say you must be very lame as a manager.
Thanks for your assessment of my skills as a manager.
You might care to check out our Blueboard rating:
http://www.proz.com/lwa?sp_mode=stats
| | | | Dan_Brennan
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | specialisation | Nov 23, 2009 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Dan Brennan wrote:
I ask because, as both a freelancer and the manager of a small agency, I have found myself facing both problems.
This will be controversial I am sure, as ProZ remains primarily a forum for translators... but as everyone knows, there are an awful lot of very bad translators out there who bring the profession into disrepute.
Interested in your thoughts.
after having seen your website. Are those problems linked to translations dealing with sports? In this field as in others, a global idea about e.g. football is not enough. There must be some kind of passion for the game, and this doesn't come through a profile or a test translation.
Sorry if I have missed the point, but I believe I can see the nature of the difficulties you mention. [Edited at 2009-11-23 19:40 GMT]
Hi Laurent,
Yes, of course, specialist subject knowledge is always an issue; generally, I like to think I'm pretty good at identifying translators who have more than a superficial knowledge of our field. But beyond that, there is the often encountered problem of people who just don't know how to translate into their own native tongue, even if their knowledge of the source language appears impressive - I think there are a lot of 'translators' who fit that description listed on ProZ.
Cheers,
Dan
[Edited at 2009-11-23 23:55 GMT]
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Dan_Brennan
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Tom in London wrote:
Dan Brennan wrote:
they don't all speak 10 languages
Dan, I'd be interested to know what experience you've have had with -
(a) translators who claim to be equally competent to/from their native language. Are they really?
(b) translators who claim to be able to translate to/from more than one language. Are they really?
Hi Tom,
In response to your two points:
a) translators who claim to be equally competent to/from their native language. Are they really?
Personally, I am always ultra-sceptical of such claims. I have worked with one translator who I consider to be truly bilingual to the extent that they can produce equally fluent translations going both ways. But my experience tends to focus on scenarios where one of the languages involved is English. The same might not be the case of Spanish/Catalan for example. In my own specialisation - Russian-English - there are far too many native Russian speakers who claim to be able to translate into English to a professional standard, when the reality shows they are far from qualified to do so. But that problem is easily avoided - just never employ a non-native speaker.
(b) translators who claim to be able to translate to/from more than one language. Are they really?
I consider it quite normal that good translators can work out of more than one source language. We have some very good translators who are equally adept working in and out of Catalan AND Spanish for example. I have several native English-speaking translators who work out of Portuguese and Spanish - two of our main languages. I personally work from Russian and French into English - though the range of material that I can comfortably translate is much more limited in the case of the latter.
| | | | | without having read all 3 pages... | Nov 23, 2009 |
Dan Brennan wrote:
The ProZ certification system is a step in the right direction, that's for sure.
You gotta be kidding!
Wisen up!
ProZ is merely a marketplace, kilomiles away from being a linguistic authority. And they scare away the good people.
Cilian
5-pence for a pound of bananas...
| | | | Dan_Brennan
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Cilian O'Tuama wrote:
Dan Brennan wrote:
The ProZ certification system is a step in the right direction, that's for sure.
You gotta be kidding!
Wisen up!
ProZ is merely a marketplace, kilomiles away from being a linguistic authority. And they scare away the good people.
Cilian
5-pence for a pound of bananas...
I've got all the bananas I need right now thanks. But your price is certainly competitive. Next time I'm making banoffee pie I'll certainly ask you for a quote.
(If ProZ "scares away the good people", what does that say about all of us who are posting and reading here? )
[Edited at 2009-11-23 23:06 GMT]
But in all seriousness, in response to your assertion that "ProZ is merely a marketplace, kilomiles away from being a linguistic authority": this may well be the case; I suppose all I'm saying is that every little helps.
I would, naturally, place much more weight on ITI or IOL certification than on ProZ certification.
[Edited at 2009-11-23 23:12 GMT]
| | | | Dan_Brennan
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | A touching tale | Nov 23, 2009 |
DZiW wrote:
Once I wanted to send a student away because she was rather weak in translation. Just imagine what I felt seeing her a few months later as on of the most promising assistants!
Enjoyed your Confucian-esque monologue, but I have to say that, while touching, your tale of the E-grade student who was transformed into an A-grader, has little bearing on botched translation jobs.
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 23:05
Spanish to English
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| Exceptional command of one's native tongue is of bedrock importance | Nov 23, 2009 |
Dan Brennan wrote:
[But beyond that, there is the problem, often encountered, of people who just don't know how to translate into their own native tongue, even if their knowledge of the source language appears impressive - I think there are a lot of 'translators' who fit that description listed on ProZ.
Cheers,
Dan
I agree with this. In fact, I think this is one of the key variables--perhaps the foundational skill--that differentiates hacks from professional translators. I think that it is also the ability that is least susceptible to improvement, for if you have not developed a sensitive ear to your own native tongue by a certain age, you likely never will....
[Edited at 2009-11-23 23:22 GMT]
| | | | | didn't wish to step on your toes... | Nov 23, 2009 |
(If ProZ "scares away the good people", what does that say about all of us who are posting and reading here? )
I'm just saying I've noticed lot of good folk don't come here no moh, don't want to be associated with the tripe. Some remain.
But proz is still a very valuable filter for outsourcers. So many participants disqualify themselves so openly.
Cilian
| | | | Dan_Brennan
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:05
Russian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Cilian O'Tuama wrote:
(If ProZ "scares away the good people", what does that say about all of us who are posting and reading here? )
I'm just saying I've noticed lot of good folk don't come here no moh, don't want to be associated with the tripe. Some remain.
But proz is still a very valuable filter for outsourcers. So many participants disqualify themselves so openly.
Cilian
In the parlance of West Baltimore: True dat.
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