| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Women invoicing less than men Thread poster: Heinrich Pesch
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Heinrich Pesch 
Finland
Local time: 08:46
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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This news was reported in the web-version of Helsingin Sanomat, the leading Finnish newspaper.
According to statistics by a Finnish invoicing service, bases on 8000 members, women freelancers invoiced on average 64 percent of the amounts of their male colleagues. Usually it is assumed that women's salaries are roughly 80 percent of those for males, so freelancing is paying women even less than working in traditional jobs.
The difference was huge especially with copywriters, where wom... See more This news was reported in the web-version of Helsingin Sanomat, the leading Finnish newspaper.
According to statistics by a Finnish invoicing service, bases on 8000 members, women freelancers invoiced on average 64 percent of the amounts of their male colleagues. Usually it is assumed that women's salaries are roughly 80 percent of those for males, so freelancing is paying women even less than working in traditional jobs.
The difference was huge especially with copywriters, where women invoiced only 24 percent compared to men.
So please, dear fellow female translator, check your invoicing politics and rise your rates! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mary Worby
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:46
German to English
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| Interesting ... | Oct 16, 2014 |
But is it based on the same number of working hours? I would assume that, on average, women work fewer hours because of greater childcare commitments.
| | | | Claudia Cherici
Italy
Local time: 07:46
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
| not right... | Oct 16, 2014 |
Mary Worby wrote:
But is it based on the same number of working hours? I would assume that, on average, women work fewer hours because of greater childcare commitments.
..and why shouldn't childcare commitments be equally shared??
| | | | Mary Worby
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:46
German to English
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I'm not suggesting that childcare shouldn't be equally shared. Merely that it might go some way towards explaining the discrepancy.
And with the best will in the world, even the most enlightened men can't share the jobs of pregnancy and breast-feeding!
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| This is the least it should take into consideration | Oct 16, 2014 |
Mary Worby wrote:
But is it based on the same number of working hours? I would assume that, on average, women work fewer hours because of greater childcare commitments.
If these statistics are worth the paper they are written on they should at least take working hours into consideration, or hourly rate for a specific job.
Then I have to say, I am always quite liberal with my time, I always charge slightly less time than I spend working and I have clients who keep coming back to ask silly questions. The best one was yesterday, when a client asked me to change a number in the translation I did. He had decided that he wanted to change a charge. When I told him he could replace it with any number and that it wouldn't make a difference to the sentence structure, he still seemed to want me to go back and change it for him!! I didn't. Some people think a translator is an admin clerk.
All this has probably to do with confidence as well - men always seem to have more.
| | | | | So, are we to assume... | Oct 16, 2014 |
... that copyrighting customers willingly pay men 4 times as much as they pay women?
Or that other freelancers' customers willingly pay half as much again for men?
If this were true, the men would struggle to find work and women freelancers would "hide" behind androgynous names.
I would love to see the original numbers. Something is skewing these statistics. If I had to guess, I would guess that it is the number of hours worked.
| | | | DLyons
Ireland
Local time: 06:46
Spanish to English
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| It's not clear from the article | Oct 16, 2014 |
Terry Richards wrote:
I would love to see the original numbers. Something is skewing these statistics. If I had to guess, I would guess that it is the number of hours worked.
Which is here http://www.hs.fi/tyoelama/a1413425050078
One of the comments makes much the same point as you "Freelancer laskuttaa tehdystä työstä. Mitä enemmän Freelancer tekee töitä, sitä enemmän hän voi laskuttaa. Olisi järjetöntä, jos vähän töitä tekevä voisi laskuttaa saman summan kuin paljon työtä tekevä.". (Freelancers bill for work done. The more a freelancer works, the more they can charge. It would be absurd, if you do a small amount of work to charge the same as if you do a lot).
[Edited at 2014-10-16 23:35 GMT]
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 08:46
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | So do women work less? | Oct 17, 2014 |
I don't know how the difference comes about, but childcare is hardly the reason. Every parent has the same choice of public kindergarten in Finland.
I don't know if female copywriters invoice for the same work so much less than males. But why should we assume that women work less than men?
I believe it would be possible to calculate the rates we publish here in our proz.com profiles and see if the gender discount applies to us or not. If the female word is cheaper than the ma... See more I don't know how the difference comes about, but childcare is hardly the reason. Every parent has the same choice of public kindergarten in Finland.
I don't know if female copywriters invoice for the same work so much less than males. But why should we assume that women work less than men?
I believe it would be possible to calculate the rates we publish here in our proz.com profiles and see if the gender discount applies to us or not. If the female word is cheaper than the male word for the same language combination or not. Then we would know the facts. ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:46
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| This is confirmed in other studies | Oct 17, 2014 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
According to statistics by a Finnish invoicing service, bases on 8000 members, women freelancers invoiced on average 64 percent of the amounts of their male colleagues. ... The difference was huge especially with copywriters, where women invoiced only 24 percent compared to men.
I would have been nice to see the statistics split up between freelancers that don't have any physical (i.e. real-life, i.e. "in person") contact with clients and those that do.
A quick google shows similar studies (unfortunately the studies themselves are often not available, so one has to rely on the journalist's interpretation of it, and that is often aimed at sensation, not accuracy).
Workingmums.co.uk writes:
According to a 2012 survey by cloud-based accountancy firm Boox, ...more than one in four freelance women (29%) earn less than £20k compared to just 12% of men. This gap narrows through the middle incomes up to £50k per year where it opens up again. While over one in three men (37%) earn above £50k per year, the same is only true of 18% of women. In the top pay brackets, men account for 80% of those earning £50k to £100k, 85% of those earning above £100k, and 76% above £150k.
Dianna Huff writes:
Ed Gandia’s 2012 Freelance Industry Report has some interesting data pertaining to women and money. For instance, female freelancers earn more per hour than do their male counterparts at almost every rate level from $20 to $59. And, at $60 to $99 per hour, men and women are just about equal. But as soon as you get to the $100, $150 and $200+ per hour ranges, men are consistently outearning women.
The report, which is based on "1,491 freelancers in more than 50 different fields and professions", can be downloaded here.
Do you know any freelance translators who charge $100 or $150 per hour?
[Edited at 2014-10-17 09:53 GMT]
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I unfortunately don't understand Finnish, and did what I could with G**gle translation, but really this difference comes as no great surprise to me (and I am a woman). First off, the very bottom of the article explains who is covered by the term "freelancer" on the website in question: bloggers, household managers, personal trainers, cleaners, seniors and musicians. I'm not sure any study purporting to cover such a mish mash of professions is really reliable.
But assuming it is, in ... See more I unfortunately don't understand Finnish, and did what I could with G**gle translation, but really this difference comes as no great surprise to me (and I am a woman). First off, the very bottom of the article explains who is covered by the term "freelancer" on the website in question: bloggers, household managers, personal trainers, cleaners, seniors and musicians. I'm not sure any study purporting to cover such a mish mash of professions is really reliable.
But assuming it is, in translation, the 64% would be about the difference between 13 and 20 cents a word, and that variation (and more) is seen in our industry. The G**gle tranlsation also mentions "data freelancer woman". If that means "IT consultant", that would be the difference between charging €640 or €1,000 a day, also perfectly plausible.
Could some of these figures be explained by the continued predominance of men entering technical careers? A qualified, experienced engineer, for example, will probably command significantly higher rates for technical writing or specialist translation than a generalist with a background in the humanities.
Samuel Murray wrote:
Do you know any freelance translators who charge $100 or $150 per hour?
I know of at least one financial translator who charges €150 an hour. Hats off to her. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Working hours not corrected for | Oct 17, 2014 |
Judging from an automatic translation of this page http://www.ukko.fi/tehdaan-naisen-eurosta-100-senttia/ , the study really just compared the total monthly billing amounts, with no correction for working hours. We should file this as a publicity stunt by this Finnish company.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:46
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Childcare commitments | Oct 17, 2014 |
Claudia Cherici wrote:
Mary Worby wrote:
I would assume that, on average, women work fewer hours because of greater childcare commitments.
...and why shouldn't childcare commitments be equally shared??
You're welcome to try sharing it with your husband. Let us know the results.
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
I don't know how the difference comes about, but childcare is hardly the reason. Every parent has the same choice of public kindergarten in Finland.
The fact that a service is available to you does not mean that you will make full use of it. Freelancers can choose how many hours they want to work and how many hours they want to spend on fulfilling activities.
[Edited at 2014-10-17 10:00 GMT]
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Natalie
Poland
Local time: 07:46
Member (2002)
English to Russian
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MODERATOR SITE LOCALIZER | This "study" | Oct 17, 2014 |
must be from the same series as "Kids prefer dogs over cats" and "Horses prefer bananas over carrots"...
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:46
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Real (but: declared) rates of Finnish ProZians | Oct 17, 2014 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
I believe it would be possible to calculate the rates we publish here in our ProZ.com profiles and see if the gender discount applies to us or not.
Out of the 5 pages of platinum members translating from English to Finnish, only 12 had both rates and a gender identifiable picture on the profile page. The results are:
Man: 0.08 - 0.12 EUR per word / 30 - 45 EUR per hour
Man: 0.12 - 0.12 EUR per word / 35 - 30 EUR per hour
Man: 0.13 - 0.13 EUR per word / 35 - 30 EUR per hour
Woman: 0.10 - 0.15 EUR per word / 25 - 35 EUR per hour
Woman: 0.10 - 0.12 EUR per word / 30 - 30 EUR per hour
Woman: 0.11 - 0.16 EUR per word / 35 - 45 EUR per hour
Woman: 0.11 - 0.18 EUR per word / 30 - 45 EUR per hour
Woman: 0.12 - 0.12 EUR per word / 35 - 35 EUR per hour
Woman: 0.12 - 0.20 EUR per word / 30 - 50 EUR per hour
Woman: 0.12 - 0.15 EUR per word / 35 - 40 EUR per hour
Woman: 0.13 - 0.20 EUR per word / 40 - 60 EUR per hour
Woman: 0.20 - 0.30 EUR per word / 35 - 50 EUR per hour
| | | | Claudia Cherici
Italy
Local time: 07:46
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
Childcare commitments 11:58
Claudia Cherici wrote:
Mary Worby wrote:
I would assume that, on average, women work fewer hours because of greater childcare commitments.
...and why shouldn't childcare commitments be equally shared??
You're welcome to try sharing it with your husband. Let us know the results.
are you implying that it shouldn't be shared?
and w... See more Childcare commitments 11:58
Claudia Cherici wrote:
Mary Worby wrote:
I would assume that, on average, women work fewer hours because of greater childcare commitments.
...and why shouldn't childcare commitments be equally shared??
You're welcome to try sharing it with your husband. Let us know the results.
are you implying that it shouldn't be shared?
and why do you assume I have a husband, don't you feel it's kind of rich...? (let alone sexist)?
[Edited at 2014-10-17 12:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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