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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

maître imagier

English translation:

master imager

Added to glossary by claude-andrew
Jun 29, 2016 16:32
7 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

maître imagier

French to English Art/Literary Architecture Cathedral history video sound track
Later in the text we learn that the "imagier" also designs the stained glass windows and in general all the decorative features of a cathedral. I am unable to find an equivalent term in English, though I have thought of "artist", "depicter" and "decorator", none of which I can authenticate.

Je me nomme Elior, ce qui signifie « première lueur » .
J’ai appris la sculpture sur de nombreux chantiers d’Orient et d’Occident et me voici en cet automne 1209, dans la loge qu’a préparée pour moi l’évêque Sylvestre.
Au printemps dernier, alors que j’étais maître du chantier du portail ouest de Notre-Dame de Paris, il m’a fait part de son projet : construire une nouvelle cathédrale à Sées.
J’ai accepté d’en devenir le **maître imagier**.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 master imager
5 +3 Master sculptor
4 Chief designer / Designer
4 master decorator

Discussion

claude-andrew (asker) Jun 29, 2016:
@Christopher Thank you for your scholarship. Perhaps I'll use the term "imager" followed by a pedagogical parenthesis "or master of sculpture and stained glass".
Charles Davis Jun 29, 2016:
"imager
n. 1. One who images or forms likenesses; a sculptor.
Praxiteles was ennobled for a rare imager.
- Holland."
Webster, 1913
http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/imager

Interestingly (to me at least), Dr Johnson's first definition of "image" is "any corporeal representation, generally used of statues".
Charles Davis Jun 29, 2016:
"Imager" This term is by no means unknown in specialist literature on medieval scupture. Here's Arthur Gardner on the fourteenth century:

"The Purbeck marblers were sending out tombs and effigies ready carved, besides shafts and capitals, and we have seen how in 1258 John of St Albans is spoken of as 'sculptor of the king's images'. These imagers of the end of the thirteenth century no doubt began as masons [...]. By the beginning of the fourteenth century, however, we begin to see signs of the divorce of the figure-sculpture from the building craft. The imager has become a specialist [...]"
https://books.google.es/books?id=LxKzQa8U05YC&pg=PA167&lpg=P...

Alexander of Abingdon, who worked for Queen Eleanor at the end of the thirteenth century, is referred to as "le ymagour" and is sometimes mentioned as "Alexander the Imager".

So although "imager" in such cases really means a figure-sculptor as opposed to a mason, one might perhaps use the term, exploiting the broader connotations of "image" in modern English. Just a thought.
claude-andrew (asker) Jun 29, 2016:
@Christopher What I wondered when posting the question was whether there exists a dedicated term in English. To answer your question "What do you need us for?" I say that the very scope and diversity of comments and suggestions (all very much appreciated) tells me that I have to be inventive - which I didn't know before.
Christopher Crockett Jun 29, 2016:
You've solved the problem, Claude-Andrew. So, what do you need us for?

Though I would suggest "a master of both sculpture and stained glass" might scan better. In view of Phil's point, what do you do with that bit about "all the decorative features of a cathedral"?

"all the decorative features of a cathedral" can mean a *lot* of stuff --what we see in "cathedrals" now is just a tiny fraction of what once existed. I rather suspect that Elior might be guilty of the sin of Pride, taking sole credit for "all the decorative features."
claude-andrew (asker) Jun 29, 2016:
Source Here's the website with the description of the son et lumières show:
http://www.musilumieres.org/spectacle-2016/synopsis-2016/
claude-andrew (asker) Jun 29, 2016:
typo ... the rest of the text ...
claude-andrew (asker) Jun 29, 2016:
Since in the test of the text, reference is often made to the art of sculptures and stained glass, I feel like being simple and using "sculpture and stained glass master", going on from Christopher's suggestion. As you say, Phil, it's spoken and therefore ephemeral and needs to be understood on the fly. Well thank you one and all for your help.
Christopher Crockett Jun 29, 2016:
Thanks, Charles, for the Godefroy reference. I never thought to actually look the word up --since I was always so sure that I knew what it meant.

But Godefroy is rather specific, isn't he? And that "image maker" reference from 1611 (which is close to my sense of the term) is really too late for our purposes.

His previous page defines "image" as simply "statuette" (1328) --so that's apparently the original sense. And I first encountered "ÿmagier" in early 14th c. documents --contracts with sculptors (not painters or verriers).

I just made like the Red Queen and assumed that the word meant whatever I wanted it to mean.
Charles Davis Jun 29, 2016:
Godefroy (Dictionnaire de l'ancienne langue française) simply defines "imagier" as "sculpteur, qui outre la pierre sculptait le bois, la corne et l'ivoire".
http://micmap.org/dicfro/search/dictionnaire-godefroy/imagie...

And "image" was often, if not always, specifically a statue (the same goes for "imagen" in Spanish, by the way). I suppose it depends whether they are using the word in its medieval sense.

I'm not very happy with "decorator", personally. I would use sculptor. So he designed non-sculptural elements too; I don't see that as an obstacle.
Christopher Crockett Jun 29, 2016:
ÿmagier works for me Yes, Phil, leaving it in French is an option.

I am in process of writing a monograph on a 12th c. sculptor ("The Master of Étampes") who was, to my eye, a quite extraordinary "ÿmagier" --that term, the way I use it in my text, refers to both the ability to "imagine" or "envision" an image and to execute that envisioned image in stone (or wood, or whatever).

But note that we're pretty much in the Tall Weeds here, with some necessary theoretical groundwork which needs to be laid --probably far beyond the scope of what Claude-Andrew needs (or wants) to do.
philgoddard Jun 29, 2016:
If this were a written text, you could leave it in French as, given the context, most educated people would have an idea of what it means. But since it's spoken, that might not work so well.

Proposed translations

+1
7 hrs
Selected

master imager

I'm going to stick my neck out and propose this formally as an answer. Although I agree with Christopher, as I've already said, that an "imagier" in this period and context is really a sculptor, even if that sculptor did other things (such as stained glass, apparently, in this case), the word "imager" is found in enough places, I think, to make it a viable option, and it has the advantage of suggesting to a modern audience the possibility of a broader range of media than just sculpture. Though it must be said that like the French word it does really mean a sculptor of figures in this historical context.

I've set out some evidence in the discussion area, which I'll repeat here and add a little more.

"imager
n. 1. One who images or forms likenesses; a sculptor.
Praxiteles was ennobled for a rare imager.
- Holland."
Webster, 1913
http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/imager"

""The Purbeck marblers were sending out tombs and effigies ready carved, besides shafts and capitals, and we have seen how in 1258 John of St Albans is spoken of as 'sculptor of the king's images'. These imagers of the end of the thirteenth century no doubt began as masons [...]. By the beginning of the fourteenth century, however, we begin to see signs of the divorce of the figure-sculpture from the building craft. The imager has become a specialist [...]"
https://books.google.es/books?id=LxKzQa8U05YC&pg=PA167&lpg=P...

"figure sculptors are documented in London from as early as 1226; somewhat inauspiciously, one Thomas the Imager is named in a rape case that year. [...]
Alexander, on the other hand, was a specialised imager, primarily, though not exclusively, working on figure-sculpture. [...]
the difference between the conceptions of the mason-sculptor and the imager."
https://books.google.es/books?id=lmnqAAAAMAAJ&dq="imager" "c...

"in 1321-22 it was a London imager who made the statues for the Exeter reredos"
https://books.google.es/books?id=KwZUAAAAMAAJ&dq="imager" "c...

"He was called the “ imager," and could probably take a hand in any kind of stonework that came his way"
https://books.google.es/books?id=iaJAAQAAMAAJ&dq="imager" "c...

"It is possible that 'poyntour' is a variant of painter, and that the word was used in its occasional mediaeval sense of sculptor or imager"
https://books.google.es/books?id=xZxUAAAAMAAJ&dq="imager" "c...

As an afterthought, given that an "imager", logically, is someone who "images", it is interesting (once again, to me at least) to note that the verb "to image" is defined by Dr Johnson as "to copy by the fancy, to imagine".
http://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofengl01johnuoft#page/n9...

I mention this in the light of Christopher's very interesting comment about imagier denoting "both the ability to 'imagine' or 'envision' an image and to execute that envisioned image in stone (or wood, or whatever)"


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2016-06-30 00:01:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Needless to say it's really an archaic term, but I don't think that does any harm here; rather the opposite, in fact.
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch : A good idea. You probably wouldn't want to back it up with this:https://goo.gl/jDBiSN
6 hrs
Thanks! Er, no :)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks very much Charles"
1 hr

Chief designer / Designer

"Designer" is always a good term to use to describe any visual creative. I have found many uses of this or of "chief designer" on the web.
Example sentence:

"Liddall Armitage was a pupil of the Arts and Crafts STAINED GLASS DESIGNER Karl Parsons and later worked with Henry Holiday, completing some of his commissions after his death in 1927. "

"Pugin was the CHIEF DESIGNER of the firm which became one of the most important Victorian studios."

Reference:

http://www.britainexpress.com/History/bio/Kempe.htm

http://stainedglassmuseum.com/briefhistory.html

Peer comment(s):
neutral Christopher Crockett : But your examples are quite modern, Laura. "Designer" doesn't necessarily involve anything more than the guy who drew the image. Our Elior went on to *execute* --"realize"-- the image (he envisioned or "designed") in the media his patron demanded.
21 mins
Something went wrong...
42 mins

master decorator

This is not set in stone (if you'll excuse the pun), and I'm sure there are other possible answers. But this seems as good as any.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2016-06-29 17:59:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The palette of the medieval [church] decorator was very limited".
http://books.google.com/books?id=AVhNAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA278&lpg=P...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2016-06-29 18:19:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You could also say "master of images".
Example sentence:

[Rubens] was also the master decorator [for the interior of the church of St Charles Borromeo in Antwerp]

he parish celebrated its 50th anniversary in 1936 and was then renovated using the talents of Scott Young as master decorator

Reference:

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/bio/r/rubens/biograph.html

http://www.diomoncton.ca/steanneparish

Peer comment(s):
neutral Christopher Crockett : Good thought, Phil; but the problem is that I've never, ever seen the term "decorator" used in a High Middle Ages context. The text refering to Rubens (17th c.) may be based on a contemporary document which uses such a term --or it may not.
5 mins
Like I said, there is no definitive translation. But your "sculptor" clearly is not appropriate, since this person is responsible for all the decoration. I've added a medieval example above.
Something went wrong...
+3
21 mins

Master sculptor

There is, of course, no English equivalent for the Middle French "ÿmagier" (the ÿ's are always dotted in Latin documents from the High Middle Ages) --and even the modern French "imagier" is not commonly seen.

It means, simply, "image maker" --though I have rarely seen it used to denote an artist whose medium is anything else but sculpture.

And since your man here is a sculptor, I'd just call him the Master sculptor (and I personally prefer to capitalize it).

"Master" --that is, the Master of the workshop-- as opposed to the apprentices who might be associated with him.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 45 mins (2016-06-29 17:17:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In architecture, there is a "Master of the works" (or simply Operarius) --who was in overall charge of the "works," the construction of the building; he was (we think) both the architect and the "general contractor," the director of the whole show.

Though I don't know of any comprehensive term for a "Master of Images," let's use it for a moment.

Some (most?) "Masters" were certainly fluent in other media --the early 12th c. monk who called himself "Theophilus" wrote an extraordinary treatise (q.v.) which gave rather detailed instructions for "Diverse Arts," including metalwork and stained glass.

Your text says that Elior was, apparently, the Master of the sculptural workshop which executed the West portal of the cathedral of Paris (though there are three portals, with sculptures in various styles and dates, surely suggesting multiple "Masters"); and he was also a Master "verrier" --which nowadays usually denotes a "glass blower" but in the Art Historical literature of the M.A. means, primarily, a worker in stained glass (which began its life by being blown).

So, I don't seen any way out for you except to call Elior the something like "a very versatile Master who was proficient in multiple media, responsible for both some of the sculptures on the West facade of the cathedral of Paris and some of the stained glass windows in the cathedral of XXX."

How you can work all that into your translation...well, that's the translator's "art" isn't it?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2016-06-29 18:28:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note that the term "maitre verrier" is in common usage among contemporary art historians to designate the Master of the workshop --in that case, the stained glass workshop.

The basic idea is that no matter how many guys there may have been working together in the shop (atelier), doing stuff like blowing the glass, fabricating the flat sheets from it, cutting the sheets into the pieces which will be framed by the lead, etc., there was a single guy who was In Charge --and it was he who did the basic envisioning of the overall composition of all the panels in the window, as well as of all the figures, the details of their drapery, faces and other figural elements, and, finally, the realization of the images in the medium (i.e., the actual painting on the glass itself).

There is, of necessity, some conjecture here, since all we really know about early 13th c. workshop organization comes mainly from what we can extrapolate from what we can see (there are no documents from this early period).
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : 'The "imagier" also designs the stained glass windows and in general all the decorative features of a cathedral.'
4 mins
In the Fench context, obviously. I've never seen that word used in English. Hence my use of "ÿmagier" --which demands clarification.
agree Charles Davis : In theory an imagier could be a painter, but in the historical context referred to here I agree that for practical purposes it is a synonym of figure sculptor. That he designed other elements too is not inconsistent with this, I think.
31 mins
Thanks Charles. Our problem is that Claude-Andrew's text specifically says he was also a Master verrier --hence my awkward, verbose circumlocution. Would that "ÿmagier" was suffient. I happen to *like* that wonderful word (which exists in the documents).
agree Andrew Bramhall : The ' verrier' bit is the stained glass designer, and here it refers to sculpting;
46 mins
Thanks, Oliver. Not, strictly speaking, a glass "designer" (there's that damned word again), but, as Godefroy says, " a "fabricant de verre, celui qui piegneit les vitreaux."
agree B D Finch : Erudite. To think that an Operarius was really just a D & B contractor!
13 hrs
Thank, B.D. Right, an "operarius" was just a worker, with a fancy title --and higher pay grade. And it ain't Erudition. Just 40+ years of beating my head against the same problem, constantly hoping for a different outcome.
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