Nov 17, 2003 21:00
20 yrs ago
1 viewer *
English term
gravity/ gravitation
English
Art/Literary
essay on the music of Bach
is there a difference in literary usage of these two words?
The sentence (translated by me) reads: "...a unique feel for musical gravity"
should it perhaps read "...for the force of musical gravitation"?
Please advise.
The original text is well written, but extremely convoluted.
The sentence (translated by me) reads: "...a unique feel for musical gravity"
should it perhaps read "...for the force of musical gravitation"?
Please advise.
The original text is well written, but extremely convoluted.
Responses
Responses
+5
8 hrs
Selected
musical logic
It would be a lot easier to judge if you could post at least the complete sentence, but I think what is really being said here refers to "musical logic". I really don´t like the "gravity" terms in this context: for me they seem to speak of moving to lower notes, which is really not going to be what your musicologist means. He is probably referring to that sense of "inevitability" that we often experience, particularly with Bach´s most highly developed works.
The most extreme example is probably the B minor Mass, taken in its entirety, which in fact ends on an "uplifting" note, although this is what the whole thing "gravitates" towards. I don´t think these up and down words really express the intention of the musicologist. (Or maybe I just mean they don´t express what I would say!)
(By the way, I studied organ, harpsichord and musicology in an English university, and am currently active as a professional harpsichordist, playing lots of Bach, and occasional musical translator. :-)
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Note added at 2003-11-18 05:47:54 (GMT)
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Maybe \"inexorable musical logic\".
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Note added at 2003-11-18 08:21:36 (GMT)
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My example of the Bach B minor Mass resolving onto the final chord of its Dona Nobis Pacem is perhaps the most highly developed example of this concept that there could possibly be, but I have considered a correspondingly extremely simple example.
If, in the context of 18th century harmony and a C major tonality, I play on the organ a treble B and a bass G, the dominant chord wants to resolve to the tonic, the B has to rise to C and the bass G rises or falls (in the absence of other context) to a C. In this case, falling to the lower C would in most cases be preferred. But this is not because of any “gravity” pulling it downwards, it is because of the preference for contrary motion – if the B rises, the G should fall.
This is to be seen if I add an F above the B. Now the pull to the tonic is even stronger, because of the dissonance of the 7th (the F) against the bass G. The F has to resolve down to E while the B still rises to C. But in this case the “inevitable musical logic” calls for the bass G not to fall but to rise to C, because the contrary motion of F - E and G - upper C is even more inexorable than that of B - C and G – lower C.
In this context “gravity” has two misleading senses – seriousness, and a downward force – and I really think it is better to find another alternative. The musical logic does not lead downwards, it leads onwards.
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Note added at 2003-11-18 11:57:15 (GMT)
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Looking at your sentences, I don´t like “logic” any more – it´s too prosaic, mundane, for the context. When I remove “gravity” and ask myself what I would like to write there, the words that occur are “cohesion”, “perfection”, “unity”. Maybe “equilibrium”.
Since you are translating, you may feel you need to keep a sense of directionality, of progression, to correspond to an original meaning of “gravity”, in which case I suggest “consequence”. But the sentences actually speak for me more of the timelessness that I perceive in works like this, of transcendence of time and space.
I am still searching for what I would consider best here. I am thinking of universes expanding and contracting. Not “entropy”, but some other word from cosmological theory …
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Note added at 2003-11-18 12:27:59 (GMT)
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\"Musical relativity\"? But I am tending to \"unique sense of musical cohesion\".
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Note added at 2003-11-18 15:58:12 (GMT)
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I am more and more attracted by ¡§cohesion¡¨ here. ¡§Gravity¡¨ works when it is seen in cosmic terms ¡V thus, not a downward force but a force of attraction (and cohesion). But this is not what I thought of when I first read the sentence. The first thought tends to be whether to wonder whether it means ¡§serious¡¨ or ¡§downward¡¨. I think the sentence works much better with cohesion, and then says better what the writer intends.
Shame about playing the Italian Concerto on a piano ¡K ƒº
The most extreme example is probably the B minor Mass, taken in its entirety, which in fact ends on an "uplifting" note, although this is what the whole thing "gravitates" towards. I don´t think these up and down words really express the intention of the musicologist. (Or maybe I just mean they don´t express what I would say!)
(By the way, I studied organ, harpsichord and musicology in an English university, and am currently active as a professional harpsichordist, playing lots of Bach, and occasional musical translator. :-)
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Note added at 2003-11-18 05:47:54 (GMT)
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Maybe \"inexorable musical logic\".
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Note added at 2003-11-18 08:21:36 (GMT)
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My example of the Bach B minor Mass resolving onto the final chord of its Dona Nobis Pacem is perhaps the most highly developed example of this concept that there could possibly be, but I have considered a correspondingly extremely simple example.
If, in the context of 18th century harmony and a C major tonality, I play on the organ a treble B and a bass G, the dominant chord wants to resolve to the tonic, the B has to rise to C and the bass G rises or falls (in the absence of other context) to a C. In this case, falling to the lower C would in most cases be preferred. But this is not because of any “gravity” pulling it downwards, it is because of the preference for contrary motion – if the B rises, the G should fall.
This is to be seen if I add an F above the B. Now the pull to the tonic is even stronger, because of the dissonance of the 7th (the F) against the bass G. The F has to resolve down to E while the B still rises to C. But in this case the “inevitable musical logic” calls for the bass G not to fall but to rise to C, because the contrary motion of F - E and G - upper C is even more inexorable than that of B - C and G – lower C.
In this context “gravity” has two misleading senses – seriousness, and a downward force – and I really think it is better to find another alternative. The musical logic does not lead downwards, it leads onwards.
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Note added at 2003-11-18 11:57:15 (GMT)
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Looking at your sentences, I don´t like “logic” any more – it´s too prosaic, mundane, for the context. When I remove “gravity” and ask myself what I would like to write there, the words that occur are “cohesion”, “perfection”, “unity”. Maybe “equilibrium”.
Since you are translating, you may feel you need to keep a sense of directionality, of progression, to correspond to an original meaning of “gravity”, in which case I suggest “consequence”. But the sentences actually speak for me more of the timelessness that I perceive in works like this, of transcendence of time and space.
I am still searching for what I would consider best here. I am thinking of universes expanding and contracting. Not “entropy”, but some other word from cosmological theory …
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Note added at 2003-11-18 12:27:59 (GMT)
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\"Musical relativity\"? But I am tending to \"unique sense of musical cohesion\".
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Note added at 2003-11-18 15:58:12 (GMT)
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I am more and more attracted by ¡§cohesion¡¨ here. ¡§Gravity¡¨ works when it is seen in cosmic terms ¡V thus, not a downward force but a force of attraction (and cohesion). But this is not what I thought of when I first read the sentence. The first thought tends to be whether to wonder whether it means ¡§serious¡¨ or ¡§downward¡¨. I think the sentence works much better with cohesion, and then says better what the writer intends.
Shame about playing the Italian Concerto on a piano ¡K ƒº
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Gayle Wallimann
: Good explanation of what I wanted to get across. Sounds like we have similar backgrounds. I also continue to play organ in church and teach piano, but I studied in the US (Eastman School of Music)
50 mins
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I did a few other things in between, though - like rock guitar and Balinese gamelan - and now play Baroque music with a Quantz swing, and in modern contexts :-)
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| agree |
Heidi Stone-Schaller
4 hrs
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| agree |
Empty Whiskey Glass
6 hrs
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| agree |
DGK T-I
: I meant it in a wider sense, but the (three?)different meanings do mean it would be better to look for another word,unless a non-confus. phrase inc.the force of gravity could be manufactured.I wonder if this confusion exists in the source language or not~
6 hrs
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Your source is concerned with the mechanics of progression in traditional European harmony, like my simple example. But the text is concerned with the experience of musical universes, such as the B Minor Mass.
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| agree |
senin
3 days 9 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "After a lengthy discussion with the author, it finally settled on force of gravitation (with some changes in the original sentence). Chris's answer gets the points for the following words: "'gravity' works when it is seen in cosmic terms". This was the author's intention.
Thanks to all for the input.
p.s. Chris, FYI it's the 1st partita and the Italian Cto., not the fantasy on the CD (I thought otherwise). It's bracketed by Berg's Piano Sonata op. 1, Schoenberg's Sechs kleine Klavierstucke op. 19 and two works by Polish contemporary composers.
Pawel Skalinski"
4 mins
gravity
I'd say gravity is fine - nothing to do with gravitation, though...
grav•i•ty \"gra-ve-te\ noun pl grav•i•ties often attrib [MF or L; MF gravite, fr. L gravitat-, gravitas, fr. gravis] (1509)
1 a : dignity or sobriety of bearing
...speaking of Bach - appropriate, isn't it?
grav•i•ty \"gra-ve-te\ noun pl grav•i•ties often attrib [MF or L; MF gravite, fr. L gravitat-, gravitas, fr. gravis] (1509)
1 a : dignity or sobriety of bearing
...speaking of Bach - appropriate, isn't it?
3 mins
Michael Powers (PhD)
United States
United States
Native in English
&
English
United States
US Court Cert. 1980 Ph.D. 1981
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, Portuguese to English, English to Spanish, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
1174
serious and critical in nature / movement toward something
I will tend toward "gravitation" with Bach and other musicians from the Barroque era since movement is so essential, versus the seriousness and gravity of some of the other genres such as some of the Chopin pieces.
Mike :)
Random House - "gravitation"
3. a movement or tendency toward something or someone: the gravitation of people toward the suburbs.
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Note added at 7 mins (2003-11-17 21:07:05 GMT)
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In reality you have to determine whether the original author is talking about movement, such as the point and counterpoint, etc., or to a seroius nature.
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Note added at 8 mins (2003-11-17 21:08:46 GMT)
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Assuming the reference is toward the movement toward this interplay of point and counterpoint, \"gravitation\" would be the appropriate choice. Thinking about Bach\'s preludes, etc., I really think \"gravitation\" is more likely that \"gravity\".
Mike :)
Random House - "gravitation"
3. a movement or tendency toward something or someone: the gravitation of people toward the suburbs.
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Note added at 7 mins (2003-11-17 21:07:05 GMT)
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In reality you have to determine whether the original author is talking about movement, such as the point and counterpoint, etc., or to a seroius nature.
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Note added at 8 mins (2003-11-17 21:08:46 GMT)
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Assuming the reference is toward the movement toward this interplay of point and counterpoint, \"gravitation\" would be the appropriate choice. Thinking about Bach\'s preludes, etc., I really think \"gravitation\" is more likely that \"gravity\".
1 hr
Armen Ayvazyan
More than one pair of quality !
Native in: Armenian (Variant: Eastern) 
, Russian
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 11 more.
gravity vs. gravitation, below
"gravity" has a larger scope of denotational and conotational meanings and thus covers that of "gravitation", which is a specific term for earth gravity, whereas "gravity" stands for any attraction even in metaphorical sense.
Nevertheless, pragmatically, those two terms are almost identical in usage and interchangeable, all depends on Your "feeling" of the context, but I would vote for "GRAVITY"!
Hope it helps
Nevertheless, pragmatically, those two terms are almost identical in usage and interchangeable, all depends on Your "feeling" of the context, but I would vote for "GRAVITY"!
Hope it helps
+6
13 mins
Gayle Wallimann
Native in English
&
English
American in Provence
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, English to French, English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
172
musical gravity
Musical gravity is the way tones descend towards a seemingly gravitational force. When they ascend, they seem to be trying to escape the force. Our ear expects musical gravity, as compositions almost always end with ascending notes, or lower notes. Bach's music is a good example. Look at the links below. I would translate it as you first suggested, musical gravity. The second suggestion does not seem to convey the same sense of Bach's accute sense (intimate knowledge of) musical gravity. Musical gravity is the broader idea that includes the force of musical gravitation.
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Note added at 1 hr 57 mins (2003-11-17 22:57:31 GMT)
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I just noticed a mistake in my explanation, please read in the third line:
\"as compositions almost always end with descending notes, or lower notes.\" I didn\'t mean to type ascending note.
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Note added at 1 hr 57 mins (2003-11-17 22:57:31 GMT)
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I just noticed a mistake in my explanation, please read in the third line:
\"as compositions almost always end with descending notes, or lower notes.\" I didn\'t mean to type ascending note.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Armen Ayvazyan
1 hr
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| agree |
Kardi Kho
: nicely put.
2 hrs
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| agree |
elamor
3 hrs
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| agree |
Mario Marcolin
10 hrs
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| agree |
Empty Whiskey Glass
14 hrs
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| agree |
DGK T-I
: another interesting ref.at http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~leigh/research.html (asker should keep 'musical gravity'as an actual term,in English at least-whether or not tones move down in the particular work) ~
15 hrs
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14 hrs
"Musical gravity"is an actual term used in musicological research studies,eg:this from Stanford Univ
"Measuring Musical Forces" -- a collaboration with Steve Larson (University of Oregon)
"Abstract
Recent studies concerning "musical forces" suggest that listeners of tonal music may understand.....These studies argue that musical motion is shaped by a "musical gravity", a "musical magnetism", and a "musical inertia" that are analogous to their physical counterparts. And these studies have found a variety of types of evidence (the distribution of patterns within compositions, improvisations, and analyses; the behavior of computer models of melodic expectation; and the responses of participants in psychological experiments)...."
The "physical counterpart" the hypothetical "musical force" is analagous to, in this case, is of course, "gravity".
So the answer is - gravity :-)
(It's an interesting academic article - headed "Leigh van Handel!"- there seems to be a sound file for an experiment attached, although it might only be for a Mac OS.)
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Note added at 14 hrs 51 mins (2003-11-18 11:52:02 GMT)
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{please note - the repetition in the above was not put there by me, but seems to be due to some bug in sending}
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Note added at 15 hrs 37 mins (2003-11-18 12:37:21 GMT)
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\"Musical gravity\" - that\'s the actual form that\'s used in English.
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Note added at 16 hrs 30 mins (2003-11-18 13:30:12 GMT)
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To Chris:
\"Musical gravity\" - likening an aspect of the experience of music to the physical gravity - isn\'t always used to describe movement to lower tones, because the expression comes from a metaphor.
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Note added at 16 hrs 35 mins (2003-11-18 13:35:50 GMT)
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but: \"Tsurubami - strange attractions in an audio house\"
http:/www.forcedexposure.com/new/2003aug16.html
seems to me to support Chris\'s argument
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Note added at 16 hrs 44 mins (2003-11-18 13:44:22 GMT)
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On the other hand, the asker\'s text likens the work of Bach to a sphere with no beginning or end. The reason why spheres are created and sustained in space is the force of gravity,attracting all parts of \"the mass\"(in this case of Bach\'s music)towards the
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Note added at 16 hrs 48 mins (2003-11-18 13:48:55 GMT)
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\'centre of gravity\' -the imaginary point in the middle of an object. Gravity keeps objects on the surface of the sphere - otherwise they would float away, and spheres wouldn\'t form.
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Note added at 16 hrs 52 mins (2003-11-18 13:52:23 GMT)
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spherical planets look spontaneous and natural - but if it wasn\'t for the (natural but hidden and overlooked,except by geniuses like Newton) force of gravity, spherical planets, etc wouldn\'t be spherical planets. That kind of idea.
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Note added at 16 hrs 56 mins (2003-11-18 13:56:12 GMT)
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I suspect a metaphor using the idea of the force of gravity in music is meant (regardless of tone).
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Note added at 17 hrs 56 mins (2003-11-18 14:56:56 GMT)
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I can\'t think of a good phrase which keeps the metaphor of musical gravity, and doesn\'t confuse - so I end up saluting Chris\'s answer ~
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Note added at 18 hrs 22 mins (2003-11-18 15:22:56 GMT)
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if possible, strengthened by the discussion, I would ask the author what he or she meant to do with the gravity.
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Note added at 18 hrs 31 mins (2003-11-18 15:31:16 GMT)
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My last bid to save the metaphor of gravity in the text and (try) to avoid a confusing message:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/19/1040174343038.html
\"These two provided the principal moments of sonic luxuriance, in a program which was...\"
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Note added at 18 hrs 32 mins (2003-11-18 15:32:27 GMT)
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\"amiably pleasant though without a climactic crowd-pleaser or centre of musical gravity. The orchestra had assembled a fine choir of 16, although in Ramsey\'s O Sapientia the direction and tempi had not yet settled in...\"
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Note added at 18 hrs 36 mins (2003-11-18 15:36:40 GMT)
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could the author have a \"musical \"centre of gravity\" \"in mind - a centre of gravity being a single point from which the combined mass of an object appears to act - ie: totality of its matter is poised around it. It does seem to connect with Chris\'s point.
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Note added at 18 hrs 41 mins (2003-11-18 15:41:14 GMT)
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on the other hand, maybe that\'s confusing too....
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Note added at 18 hrs 50 mins (2003-11-18 15:50:38 GMT)
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on the other hand, maybe that\'s confusing too....
"Abstract
Recent studies concerning "musical forces" suggest that listeners of tonal music may understand.....These studies argue that musical motion is shaped by a "musical gravity", a "musical magnetism", and a "musical inertia" that are analogous to their physical counterparts. And these studies have found a variety of types of evidence (the distribution of patterns within compositions, improvisations, and analyses; the behavior of computer models of melodic expectation; and the responses of participants in psychological experiments)...."
The "physical counterpart" the hypothetical "musical force" is analagous to, in this case, is of course, "gravity".
So the answer is - gravity :-)
(It's an interesting academic article - headed "Leigh van Handel!"- there seems to be a sound file for an experiment attached, although it might only be for a Mac OS.)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs 51 mins (2003-11-18 11:52:02 GMT)
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{please note - the repetition in the above was not put there by me, but seems to be due to some bug in sending}
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Note added at 15 hrs 37 mins (2003-11-18 12:37:21 GMT)
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\"Musical gravity\" - that\'s the actual form that\'s used in English.
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Note added at 16 hrs 30 mins (2003-11-18 13:30:12 GMT)
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To Chris:
\"Musical gravity\" - likening an aspect of the experience of music to the physical gravity - isn\'t always used to describe movement to lower tones, because the expression comes from a metaphor.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs 35 mins (2003-11-18 13:35:50 GMT)
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but: \"Tsurubami - strange attractions in an audio house\"
http:/www.forcedexposure.com/new/2003aug16.html
seems to me to support Chris\'s argument
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Note added at 16 hrs 44 mins (2003-11-18 13:44:22 GMT)
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On the other hand, the asker\'s text likens the work of Bach to a sphere with no beginning or end. The reason why spheres are created and sustained in space is the force of gravity,attracting all parts of \"the mass\"(in this case of Bach\'s music)towards the
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs 48 mins (2003-11-18 13:48:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
\'centre of gravity\' -the imaginary point in the middle of an object. Gravity keeps objects on the surface of the sphere - otherwise they would float away, and spheres wouldn\'t form.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs 52 mins (2003-11-18 13:52:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
spherical planets look spontaneous and natural - but if it wasn\'t for the (natural but hidden and overlooked,except by geniuses like Newton) force of gravity, spherical planets, etc wouldn\'t be spherical planets. That kind of idea.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs 56 mins (2003-11-18 13:56:12 GMT)
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I suspect a metaphor using the idea of the force of gravity in music is meant (regardless of tone).
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs 56 mins (2003-11-18 14:56:56 GMT)
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I can\'t think of a good phrase which keeps the metaphor of musical gravity, and doesn\'t confuse - so I end up saluting Chris\'s answer ~
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Note added at 18 hrs 22 mins (2003-11-18 15:22:56 GMT)
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if possible, strengthened by the discussion, I would ask the author what he or she meant to do with the gravity.
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Note added at 18 hrs 31 mins (2003-11-18 15:31:16 GMT)
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My last bid to save the metaphor of gravity in the text and (try) to avoid a confusing message:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/19/1040174343038.html
\"These two provided the principal moments of sonic luxuriance, in a program which was...\"
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Note added at 18 hrs 32 mins (2003-11-18 15:32:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
\"amiably pleasant though without a climactic crowd-pleaser or centre of musical gravity. The orchestra had assembled a fine choir of 16, although in Ramsey\'s O Sapientia the direction and tempi had not yet settled in...\"
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Note added at 18 hrs 36 mins (2003-11-18 15:36:40 GMT)
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could the author have a \"musical \"centre of gravity\" \"in mind - a centre of gravity being a single point from which the combined mass of an object appears to act - ie: totality of its matter is poised around it. It does seem to connect with Chris\'s point.
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Note added at 18 hrs 41 mins (2003-11-18 15:41:14 GMT)
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on the other hand, maybe that\'s confusing too....
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Note added at 18 hrs 50 mins (2003-11-18 15:50:38 GMT)
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on the other hand, maybe that\'s confusing too....
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Chris Rowson (X)
: But when I re-read the passage with “musical gravity” it still strikes me as odd.
3 hrs
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it is odd :-)
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Discussion