Mar 13, 2014 11:32
10 yrs ago
57 viewers *
Czech term

v. r.

Czech to English Law/Patents Law (general)
Pěkný den. Chtěl bych se zeptat, jak elegantně přeložit do EN tuto zkratku respektive zda je přípustný překlad "(signed)" za jménem. Mám pocit, že jsem blahé paměti viděl korekturu z Evr. komise, kde preferenčně opravovali "m. p." na něco se "signed" (jakožto běžnější ekvivalent), ale nemohu si vzpomenout, jak přesně ta formulace vypadala a nedaří se mi ji vygooglovat.

Zajímali by mě také názory na to, co se na orig. angl. listinách (z UK) běžně objevuje.

Díky za odpovědi a hezký den
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 m.p.
4 manu propria

Discussion

Zdeněk Hartmann (asker) Mar 15, 2014:
Mockrát díky, bybyolondon a Stuarte, že ještě hloubáte (pozdě není nikdy, tahle zkratka se objevuje velmi často). Mám pocit, že v. r. jsem kdysi dávno viděl přeloženo jako "signed" (nebo tak nějak) právě v dokumentu podobného typu, jako zmiňuje Stuart (tedy nešlo o EIA, ale o cca 5řádkové vyjádření jednoho českého ministerstva k nějaké (už nevím jaké) otázce ve smyslu ANO/NE).

Česká Wikipedie také uvádí, že v. r. je typické mj. i v rozhodnutích správních orgánů, což na první pohled celkem zapadá do kontextu Stuartova textu.

V. r. jsem vždy chápal v tom druhém ze smyslů, které zmiňuje babylondon.

Mimochodem: "můj" případ se týká notářského zápisu.

Ještě jednou díky, oběma, za bohaté objasnění (a Stuartovi za tu "paralelu" mezi českým prezidentem a jejím veličenstvem...).
Češtinářům omluva za gramatické chyby...
Stuart Hoskins Mar 15, 2014:
I probably expressed myself poorly, as usual. I absolutely agree with you, babs. The point I was trying to make under my point number 1) was, essentially, that, if we were being pedants, we would try to avoid "signed" in English, simply because it's not there in Czech. As chance would have it, I came across "v.r." in a translation the other day where I least expected it - in a vyjádření by a public authority. Would "m.p." sound too formal at the bottom of a document that just says "we agree that an EIA would be a good idea"? I thought so...
Pavel Slama Mar 15, 2014:
Analysis Probably too late here, still. I've done some research.

Stuart, your analysis is misguided, methinks. It *is* an ellipsis, but of "[podepsán] vlastní rukou". This can be in two contexts:
1/ When v. r. was used next to an actual signature, this was a kind of self-certification. (now obsolete)
2/ When v. r. is used next to a printed name, this means that the *original* of that document has been actually signed.

Now considering that, other than "m. p." we could also consider:
- mppria
- m/p
- manu propria
- sgd.
- duly signed


---------------------
Reference
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/serbo_croat_to_english/law_general...

Example (cz/de/en)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Mým_náro...
http://www.bl.uk/britishlibrary/~/media/BL/Global/world-war-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_my_people

Proposed translations

+4
5 mins
Selected

m.p.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_propria

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Note added at 6 mins (2014-03-13 11:39:20 GMT)
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The EU correctors will often delete this (i.e. leave it blank).

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Note added at 10 hrs (2014-03-13 21:35:17 GMT)
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1. As to “signed”
I suppose the highly pedantic answer would be that, while accepting the elliptical construction of “vlastní rukou” in this case, it does not mean “signed”, i.e. you can obviously have a letter, a will, a CV, etc., “(na)psán vlastní rukou” (but not necessarily signed…). The same applies to “manu propria”, so it appears to be a fitting equivalent.

2. “v.r.” in legislation
In English law, the equivalent of “Zeman v. r.” is (in jest) “Be it enacted by the Queen's (King's) most Excellent Majesty…” (!)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/

3. “v.r.” in judgments
In published judgments (English law), the judges’ names (not signatures) are listed at the start of the document, but do not feature at the end, so perhaps we cannot find an equivalent here (I stand to be corrected).
http://supremecourt.uk/decided-cases/index.shtml
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/media/judgments/2014
For a bit of diversity (Victoria, Australia):
http://www.magistratescourt.vic.gov.au/jurisdictions/judgmen...

4. Solution
As Gerry mentions, in the ideal world, it would probably be best just to ignore “v.r.”, but otherwise I'd use “m.p.” and let the client (or proofreader) do what they want with it. That said, if you want to use "signed by... [in his/her own hand]" as a more elegant solution, I don't think too many people are going to be upset.
Note from asker:
Thanks Stuart, I'd swear I really saw this changed into something with signed ("signed by"?), but I'll heed your advice.
Děkuji vám, Stuarte, za obsáhlý, velmi poučný, a zábavný výklad.
Peer comment(s):

agree Jennifer Taylor
2 mins
Thanks, Jennifer.
agree Lenka Mandryszová
18 mins
Thanks, Lenka.
agree Gerry Vickers : I always put this and it completely confuses 'proofreaders'. I have seen it 'corrected' to all sorts of weird and wonderful things. If I leave it out (my preference) it confuses them as well ... can't win :)
24 mins
Thanks, Gerry. Ne'er a truer word....
agree Pavel Slama
2 hrs
Thanks, babylondon.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Moc díky, nejen Stuartovi, ale také bybylondon a všem dalším přispěvatelům. "
2 hrs

manu propria

I expand the abbreviation, so that those who don't know it could google what it means.
Note from asker:
Díky!
Something went wrong...
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