| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | How would you define "respect" Thread poster: Sheila Wilson
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Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 04:37
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Hello all,
Maybe not such a problem to translate the word, but does "respect" actually mean the same thing to all individuals and all cultures?
I didn't realise until I came to live in France that the French idea of respect seems to be inextricably linked with the words you use when addressing someone, whilst I, as an Englishwoman, don't feel that words are necessarily an important guage of respect or disrespect. Many French people think the tu/vous distinction ("you" t... See more Hello all,
Maybe not such a problem to translate the word, but does "respect" actually mean the same thing to all individuals and all cultures?
I didn't realise until I came to live in France that the French idea of respect seems to be inextricably linked with the words you use when addressing someone, whilst I, as an Englishwoman, don't feel that words are necessarily an important guage of respect or disrespect. Many French people think the tu/vous distinction ("you" translates as "tu" for family/friend and "vous" for others), and the use of the family name along with Sir/Madam equivalents are fundamental to relationships at work, and even with in-laws. Often they address their boss and their mother-in-law as "vous", and are happy when that person addresses them as "tu", thus imposing a heirarchy of respect and seniority into the relationship.
The difference is particularly clear when I coach French job-seekers in interview techniques and working in English-speaking countries. They know that we don't have formal and informal versions of the 2nd person (we're all "you" ), and they worry about how to appear respectful at work, especially when I point out that we adopt first names very quickly and we would never address our boss or others in the workplace as Sir/Madam. Please note that I do say that "Hello, Chris" on interview day would be a little familiar but I add that after a while it would become an appropriate greeting for your boss, rather than "Good Morning, Mr Jones".
I tell them that when I worked as a secretary for Shell, over 30 years ago, I was encouraged to address the directors as Tom, Doug, etc. Respect was shown by doing as you were asked, taking advice, not being rude, trying to make their lives easier, ... Mind you, there were some middle managers who insisted on Mr/Mrs - therein probably lies the root of the problem: to the insecure person, a respectful form of address is important to boost self-image and define seniority.
I'd be interested in hearing others' views from the French, British, American and all other viewpoints. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 22:37
Greek to English
+ ...
| Cultures etc | Oct 19, 2009 |
I lived 7 yrs in Germany, 23 yrs in Greece and 12 yrs in the US.
The whole concept of "respect" is very different between countries. More similar between European countries, but still different.
Not only in regard to "respect" but in all other aspects of life (more or less).
The U.S. is a different plant all together, since its culture is new and "simplistic", more focused on professional relationships, while the cultures in Europe are very old and complica... See more I lived 7 yrs in Germany, 23 yrs in Greece and 12 yrs in the US.
The whole concept of "respect" is very different between countries. More similar between European countries, but still different.
Not only in regard to "respect" but in all other aspects of life (more or less).
The U.S. is a different plant all together, since its culture is new and "simplistic", more focused on professional relationships, while the cultures in Europe are very old and complicated (concepts accumulated over thousands of years, often conflicting).
"Respect" is a very complicated issue. Being "rude" is another very complicated issue, and being "offensive" is something that changes constantly. Most Europeans are considered "offensive" in the U.S. (until they adjust). Most Americans are considered "too direct" in the old cultures.
etc etc...
The formal ("honorific") plural is very common in Europe and required in most cases, especially in written communications.
Many funny scenes in Greece where you could see people swearing at each other sometimes in formal plural.
Have fun (and adjust). No point in arguing with 3000 year old cultures and millions of people. There's no point. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edward Vreeburg
Netherlands
Local time: 05:37
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
I guess being direct, on firstname basis with any boss or manager, tutoyer au lieu de vous-voyer and saying all kinds of bad words in English, makes me look very disprespectfull in the eyes of foreigners - however in the Netherlands it's almost common practice and accepted behaviour....
- respect does not come from words - it comes from actions.
By the way - just looked at some of the rates offered, 0,04 eur, 0,02 and 0,06 usd for translations into Dutch - -> lack of ... See more I guess being direct, on firstname basis with any boss or manager, tutoyer au lieu de vous-voyer and saying all kinds of bad words in English, makes me look very disprespectfull in the eyes of foreigners - however in the Netherlands it's almost common practice and accepted behaviour....
- respect does not come from words - it comes from actions.
By the way - just looked at some of the rates offered, 0,04 eur, 0,02 and 0,06 usd for translations into Dutch - -> lack of respect for the entire professional translation community!!!
Ed
[Edited at 2009-10-19 13:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 04:37
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I would just like to understand better | Oct 19, 2009 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Have fun (and adjust). No point in arguing with 3000 year old cultures and millions of people. There's no point.
I certainly wouldn't dream of arguing with other cultures on such a delicate matter, though I do find it difficult to adjust personally to the French culture in this area. Most of my translation communications are by email - no real problem there. However, I feel aggrieved when a manager of a language school (my client, NOT my boss seeing as I'm independent) says "Ma chère Sheila, tu ..." and expects me to respectfully reply "Monsieur X, vous ...", and if I get on well with a student (my end client) I find it difficult not to address them in familiar terms after a while.
Many funny scenes in Greece where you could see people swearing at each other sometimes in formal plural.
Yes, that's something I find amusing, too. I've also heard "Je vous aime" which seems to me to mean "I love you, but I wouldn't consider you a friend".
The formal ("honorific") plural is very common in Europe and required in most cases, especially in written communications.
Even in English, where there are no special words, the wording of written texts is often more formal through the choice of words and phrases. "Thanks" may become "I would like to take the opportunity of thanking you".
Edward Vreeburg wrote:
- respect does not come from words - it comes from actions.
That's certainly my thinking, too. It's true that the problem didn't arise for me when I lived in the Netherlands. I was told that it was formal address until you'd been introduced and/or shaken hands, then informal and first names - it seemed to be how it worked, and it seemed logical.
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| | Helen Shiner
France
Local time: 05:37
Member (2008)
German to English
+ ...
I experienced something very similar when in Germany within an academic context. A German professor who claimed to have a great command of English and our cultural mores, insisted on calling me Helen while continuing to use the formal mode of address. The other doctoral students - all Germans - he addressed as Frau/Herr XX. We were all, however, expected to call him Herr Professor Dr YY. Result - he thought he was being informal with me in the Anglo-American style and I had to fight off feelings... See more I experienced something very similar when in Germany within an academic context. A German professor who claimed to have a great command of English and our cultural mores, insisted on calling me Helen while continuing to use the formal mode of address. The other doctoral students - all Germans - he addressed as Frau/Herr XX. We were all, however, expected to call him Herr Professor Dr YY. Result - he thought he was being informal with me in the Anglo-American style and I had to fight off feelings of being patronised by him!!
For me, respect should be a two-way thing regardless of where a person sits within a hierarchy, notional or otherwise.
Of course, it also goes without saying that the English are past masters at being rude and patronising while using the most formal, apparently respectful language! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | absolutely... | Oct 19, 2009 |
Helen Shiner wrote:
Of course, it also goes without saying that the English are past masters at being rude and patronising while using the most formal, apparently respectful language!
Helen, how true!
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 04:37
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Proof of the pudding | Oct 19, 2009 |
Helen Shiner wrote:
For me, respect should be a two-way thing regardless of where a person sits within a hierarchy, notional or otherwise.
Of course, it also goes without saying that the English are past masters at being rude and patronising while using the most formal, apparently respectful language!
That's the problem, isn't it? However many conventions are in place to define relationships, people will still think what they think, and will only show real respect if they really respect.
PS @ Susanne. Thanks for the link - perfect timing!
[Edited at 2009-10-19 16:12 GMT]
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| Familiarity can be a complicated thing | Oct 19, 2009 |
On a daily basis, I speak more French than any other language. I always vouvoie people I don't know, even when they are younger than me, unless they have a very informal look and behaviour and are in their early twenties or younger. People are usually surprised by this, even uncomfortable. I know I am not a standard when it comes to addressing people. I always let people tell me to address them in a familiar manner--I never decide to do that on my own.
However, there is more ... See more On a daily basis, I speak more French than any other language. I always vouvoie people I don't know, even when they are younger than me, unless they have a very informal look and behaviour and are in their early twenties or younger. People are usually surprised by this, even uncomfortable. I know I am not a standard when it comes to addressing people. I always let people tell me to address them in a familiar manner--I never decide to do that on my own.
However, there is more to respect than the way you address a person. Some people can address you in a familiar manner and still be very respectful of you, and some people can talk to you formally while being utterly disrespectful of you. The notion of respect doesn't stop simply at picking a way to address others.
In a way, English is great because it doesn't make a distinction between familiar and formal. It makes communicating with people in a direct manner very easy. French, on the other hand, makes this very difficult at times. When in doubt, I think a smile, a firm but friendly handshake and a respectful behaviour goes a much longer way than a Sir or Madam. ▲ Collapse
| | | | JulietteCh
Local time: 05:37
Spanish to French
+ ...
| A French in Spain | Oct 19, 2009 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Hello all,
Maybe not such a problem to translate the word, but does "respect" actually mean the same thing to all individuals and all cultures?
I didn't realise until I came to live in France that the French idea of respect seems to be inextricably linked with the words you use when addressing someone, whilst I, as an Englishwoman, don't feel that words are necessarily an important guage of respect or disrespect. Many French people think the tu/vous distinction ("you" translates as "tu" for family/friend and "vous" for others), and the use of the family name along with Sir/Madam equivalents are fundamental to relationships at work, and even with in-laws. Often they address their boss and their mother-in-law as "vous", and are happy when that person addresses them as "tu", thus imposing a heirarchy of respect and seniority into the relationship.
The difference is particularly clear when I coach French job-seekers in interview techniques and working in English-speaking countries. They know that we don't have formal and informal versions of the 2nd person (we're all "you" ), and they worry about how to appear respectful at work, especially when I point out that we adopt first names very quickly and we would never address our boss or others in the workplace as Sir/Madam. Please note that I do say that "Hello, Chris" on interview day would be a little familiar but I add that after a while it would become an appropriate greeting for your boss, rather than "Good Morning, Mr Jones".
I tell them that when I worked as a secretary for Shell, over 30 years ago, I was encouraged to address the directors as Tom, Doug, etc. Respect was shown by doing as you were asked, taking advice, not being rude, trying to make their lives easier, ... Mind you, there were some middle managers who insisted on Mr/Mrs - therein probably lies the root of the problem: to the insecure person, a respectful form of address is important to boost self-image and define seniority.
I'd be interested in hearing others' views from the French, British, American and all other viewpoints.
Hi,
Very interesting subject that I too faced in Spain but in the opposite side. As a French I have difficulties in Spain to know when I can "tutoyer" or "vouvoyer" because in Spain they say "tu" more often than in France and it has always been a problem for me to say "tu" to unknown people or people who were older than me. And I had to get used to say "tu" in Spain and now when I go back to France, I tend to say "tu" easily and sometimes it's not well considered! But I think it's changing in France and young people (30 years old like me and less) says "tu" and uses the first name faster than older people.
Bye,
Juliette
| | | | | That's the problem I have | Oct 19, 2009 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
...people will still think what they think, and will only show real respect if they really respect.
But how do you distinguish real respect from politeness? When someone says to you "Have a great week-end!", do they really mean it, or do they only say it out of politeness? In Québec culture, there is a nasty habit of asking everybody the moment you see them "How do you do?" My honest reply would be "What do you care?," and at times, I wonder how people would react if I bluntly said "I am doing terribly." So, I am just being polite (not respectful) by simply saying "Fine, thank you", even when it isn't the case at all (thereby being dishonest, and perhaps by the same token disrespectful).
And then, how do you distinguish real respect from politeness? I have never found an efficient method for this. Faking it is so easy! Then, you also have to consider that some people are being rude only because it is their nature to be blunt, and they do not really mean it--these people may be very respectful, kind people who only come off as rude. So, a disrespectful person can come off as a very respectful one, and vice versa. I think it is very easy to mix up respect and politeness... Maybe this is where French cultures are wrong and English cultures are right. At least, with an Englishman, you know where you stand--and you are justified in being rude with them if it suits you!
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 05:37
French to German
+ ...
| A sentence found... | Oct 19, 2009 |
ViktoriaG wrote:
But how do you distinguish real respect from politeness? When someone says to you "Have a great week-end!", do they really mean it, or do they only say it out of politeness?
in an old German book (and adapted): Politeness may be nothing but an airbag, but it will prevent you from being hurt.
As per respect, I agree, it is completely different.
[Edited at 2009-10-19 17:24 GMT]
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John Rawlins
Spain
Local time: 05:37
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Somehow undemocratic | Oct 19, 2009 |
As a Brit living in Spain I have always addressed everybody as 'tu'. I am almost always very polite to everybody - but something about the 'usted' form of address has always stuck in my throat. No doubt many Spaniards would argue with me on this point - but 'usted' has always seemed to me to be somewhat creepy and undemocratic.
I cannot remember anyone reacting negatively after I addressed them as 'tu'. But, as my wife would say, that may reflect my own lack of sensitivity in some s... See more As a Brit living in Spain I have always addressed everybody as 'tu'. I am almost always very polite to everybody - but something about the 'usted' form of address has always stuck in my throat. No doubt many Spaniards would argue with me on this point - but 'usted' has always seemed to me to be somewhat creepy and undemocratic.
I cannot remember anyone reacting negatively after I addressed them as 'tu'. But, as my wife would say, that may reflect my own lack of sensitivity in some social situations.
[Edited at 2009-10-19 17:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What about letter writing! | Oct 19, 2009 |
This is surely a very interesting thread. I would appreciate if someone also discussed the appropriate address while writing formal mails. It would be extremely useful for Indians like me who are not exposed much to non-indian cultures in this particular context.
| | | | Ali Rahmani
Local time: 04:37
English to Persian (Farsi)
+ ...
| it is a relativistic concept fostering common human values as cohesion and security | Oct 19, 2009 |
As a generic sense of civil esteem, respect is arguably the most intricate human condition that has fueled human history with a sense of purpose. Though its role seems to be subject to socio-historic interpretation and modern times tends to demand a unified projection of its context, yet there are many regions in the world -less economically afluent - with respect as a dominant player in determining social harmony, family union and as an instrument of insurance to many forms of sociological re... See more As a generic sense of civil esteem, respect is arguably the most intricate human condition that has fueled human history with a sense of purpose. Though its role seems to be subject to socio-historic interpretation and modern times tends to demand a unified projection of its context, yet there are many regions in the world -less economically afluent - with respect as a dominant player in determining social harmony, family union and as an instrument of insurance to many forms of sociological relationships that are understandably taken for granred in the west. ▲ Collapse
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