Saxon genitive, descriptive genitive? Thread poster: cris_c79 (X)
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cris_c79 (X) 
Italy
Local time: 09:41
English to Italian
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I posed a kudoz question asking wheter it is correct to write
an hour's yoga
in English. Some people (thanks Francesca) told me the rule I know as well about saxon genitive being used only for People (Rita's car) while Manducci kindly sent this explanation from the "Columbia Guide to Standard American English":
" A few of the crustiest purists continue to argue that inanimate objects cannot use the genitive because they often cannot be said to possess the... See more I posed a kudoz question asking wheter it is correct to write
an hour's yoga
in English. Some people (thanks Francesca) told me the rule I know as well about saxon genitive being used only for People (Rita's car) while Manducci kindly sent this explanation from the "Columbia Guide to Standard American English":
" A few of the crustiest purists continue to argue that inanimate objects cannot use the genitive because they often cannot be said to possess the quality named, as in "a day's pay". In fact, the genitive case has always had more purposes than simply indicating possession and descriptive genitives are, and long have been, standard English"
The kudoz question can be found at
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/465352
What do you think about it? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X)
French to English
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| an hour's yoga, yes | Jun 25, 2003 |
I go with my experience and ear.
An hour's yoga is fine in some instances.
"An hour's yoga will cost you $25.00"
[meaning: an hour's WORTH of yoga]
BUT
If you are advertising the yoga class and you list the price, then it is not correct.
Yoga per hour or
yoga
one hour
two hours...
Collocation is important in your example...
| | | | cris_c79 (X)
Italy
Local time: 09:41
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER
Dear Jane,
I was referring to a sentence like
"An hour's yoga will cost you $25.00"
Would you use "an hour of yoga" in this case? and if you would, which would you consider most appropriate?
| | | | | genitive or not?? | Jun 25, 2003 |
voglio proprio vederci chiaro su questa questione che ha suscitato tante polemiche ciao cristina
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| | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 09:41
Spanish to English
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| An hour's yoga | Jun 25, 2003 |
will do everyone well at this stage...
But "an hour of yoga (lessons) will cost XX", if this is how it is to be understood.
So how do you want it understood?
| | | | cris_c79 (X)
Italy
Local time: 09:41
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER | "No other way of saying it" | Jun 26, 2003 |
Dear John,
would it then be wrong to say "one hour of yoga"?
| | | | | thank you John | Jun 26, 2003 |
very good and useful link John!
thanks a lot
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| No, it wouldn't be wrong... | Jun 26, 2003 |
Maria Cristina Caimotto wrote:
Dear John,
would it then be wrong to say "one hour of yoga"?
Hi Maria. I was wrong to state so baldly "there's no other way of saying it"...what I meant was that the genitive is perfectly normal, and is often the only natural-sounding way to express the idea.
In the case you asked about - the yoga example - it's possible to say "an hour's yoga", "an hour of yoga" or "one hour of yoga" - however, there are very slight differences in how they're used.
"An hour's yoga" is perhaps the most "neutral": "I'm having an hour's yoga this evening" / "I always do an hour's yoga before I go to work" etc. Here, no particular emphasis is being placed on the exact length of time (could be an hour and five minutes, or 55 minutes, it just expresses "a short time, about an hour long).
"An hour of yoga" implies a bit more attention to the length of time and can be a little more formal - "An hour of yoga costs £5.00". However, there's very little difference between this and "an hour's yoga" - perhaps if you said "I always do an hour of yoga", you are being slightly more exact about the time ("I time myself...")
"One hour of yoga" definitely emphasizes the length of time - "I paid for one hour of yoga, and I'm not leaving until I get the whole amount...". Often "One" will be contrasted to another number, and will be emphasised in speaking: "One hour of yoga does me more good than three hours in the gym".
However, in many cases the three examples above are not interchangeable: for example, you could say "My boss owes me a week's wages" or (if you want to emphasise the numeber a bit more - one week, not four days... "My boss owes me one week's wages". You'll often find this formulation in official/legal satements: "If you are made redundant, you are entitled to one week's wages for every year you have worked for the company". Howver, it would sound very odd indeed to say "My boss owes me a week of wages..." etc.
Similar examples could be:
"I'm taking a week's holiday next month" (neutral, simply a statement of intention)
"I'm taking one week's holiday next month and another two weeks in August" (more emphasis on the number...)
"I'm taking one week of holiday next month" (( = one week out of my holiday entitlement of five weeks...sounds more formal, as if you're thinking of your legal entitlement).
As always, there are "illogical" exceptions, and probably no two native English speakers would entirely agree with each other about specific examples: can we ever say "a day of pay", for example, even in a legalistic context?
Best wishes!
| | | | | What about the other way around? | Jun 26, 2003 |
Hi everybody,
I think It would be more precise to say:
"a yoga's hour"
If we have to use the saxon genitive at all!
"an hour's yoga" does not make sense at all to my "ear".
Cheers everybody.
FFB
In fact, when we say: "a dog's life", we mean " the life of a dog" end, so, following the same rule, from "an hour's yoga" we would get the meaning: "the yoga of an hour", whereas, with: "a yoga's hour" we would ge... See more Hi everybody,
I think It would be more precise to say:
"a yoga's hour"
If we have to use the saxon genitive at all!
"an hour's yoga" does not make sense at all to my "ear".
Cheers everybody.
FFB
In fact, when we say: "a dog's life", we mean " the life of a dog" end, so, following the same rule, from "an hour's yoga" we would get the meaning: "the yoga of an hour", whereas, with: "a yoga's hour" we would get: "the hour of yoga" or: "an hour of yoga".
Cheers
[Edited at 2003-06-26 21:26] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | To quote John McEnroe: | Jun 26, 2003 |
Francesco Barbuto wrote:
Hi everybody,
I think It would be more precise to say:
"a yoga's hour"
If we have to use the saxon genitive at all!
"an hour's yoga" does not make sense at all to my "ear".
Cheers everybody.
FFB
In fact, when we say: "a dog's life", we mean " the life of a dog" end, so, following the same rule, from "an hour's yoga" we would get the meaning: "the yoga of an hour", whereas, with: "a yoga's hour" we would get: "the hour of yoga" or: "an hour of yoga".
Cheers
[Edited at 2003-06-26 21:26]
"You can not be serious"!!!
| | | | cris_c79 (X)
Italy
Local time: 09:41
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER | thank you John | Jun 27, 2003 |
Thank you very much John, your explanation was very clear to me.
Once again I have to say it's much more useful to pay attention to what you read and hear rather than studying grammar rules!
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manducci
Local time: 09:41
Italian to English
| Non-possessive uses of the genitive | Jun 30, 2003 |
The genitive is not, as I already pointed out in my kudos answer, used exclusively to indicate possession. The genitive in the phrase "an hour's yoga" is a case in point: it does NOT denote POSSESSION.It is, as far as I am aware, an example of the DESCRIPTIVE GENITIVE, which is frequently used to describe duration (as MUJA confirmed). There are many examples of this use of the genitive - other examples being:
an hour's drive/walk/conversation
a day's/a week's/ a month's pay.
... See more The genitive is not, as I already pointed out in my kudos answer, used exclusively to indicate possession. The genitive in the phrase "an hour's yoga" is a case in point: it does NOT denote POSSESSION.It is, as far as I am aware, an example of the DESCRIPTIVE GENITIVE, which is frequently used to describe duration (as MUJA confirmed). There are many examples of this use of the genitive - other examples being:
an hour's drive/walk/conversation
a day's/a week's/ a month's pay.
It seems that the key phrase in the extract taken from the "Columbia Guide to Standard American English" has been overlooked:
"the genitive case HAS ALWAYS HAD MORE PURPOSES THAN SIMPLY INDICATING POSSESSION and DESCRIPTIVE GENITIVES are, and always have been, STANDARD ENGLISH." ▲ Collapse
| | | | Endre Both
Germany
Local time: 09:41
English to German
...for your great explanation!
Endre
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