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Do we all have to speak The Queen's English?
Thread poster: Hans Lenting
Hans Lenting
Hans Lenting
Netherlands
Member (2006)
German to Dutch
Dec 30, 2021

In https://www.proz.com/forum/software_applications/355093-ocr_pdf_to_word_editing_workshop.html , Tom wrote:

Alas, I've spent half my life watching things that might or might not be useful to me. And still doing it. I was tempted to watch this one too - out of curiosity - but the speaker's English is so bad that I decided to do something else instead. Why do people who can't speak English insist on making videos in English?


Apart from the fact that it's never nice to read something like this, when you have invested energy in making an instructive video for your colleagues, I think that there are different levels of command of English. To me (as a Dutch citizen) the English spoken in the video was perfectly understandable.

It's common knowledge that besides The Queen's English there's also an International English, spoken by hundreds of millions of people around the world. Stanislav, the maker of the video mentioned in the link, is speaking such an International English. How practical for all those colleagues who don't speak Russian. And maybe also for native speakers of The Queen's English?

Let me add some MT-translated columns from Dutch newspapers:

Bad English is the world language

Is the following recognisable? When I have meetings with the British for my work, I am always a bit tense beforehand because of the language. And afterwards I am more tired than after other conversations. But if I have to have a conversation in English with a group of Spaniards, Chinese or Germans, this does not bother me at all. I don't think about things like vocabulary, grammar or pronunciation; I just get on with my work.

In international traffic, most people speak very good bad English. The joke comes from Heather Hansen, communication specialist and language coach. And according to her, my experience is quite normal. People who have English as a second language have much more comfortable conversations with each other than with people whose mother tongue is English.

So it is not the Queen's English, but bad English that is the lingua franca of the business world. Worldwide, 1.5 billion to 2 billion people speak English, according to various estimates. The number of people who speak English as a second language is much larger than the number of native speakers. That is about 370 million. In China alone, more people are now learning English.

In international traffic, most people speak bad English very well.
The funny thing is that all those people who speak 'bad English' generally understand each other perfectly. And precisely when a native speaker joins such a group, the number of communication problems increases, say experts such as Hansen.

There are several reasons for this. People who speak English as a second language tend to talk more slowly, purposefully and cautiously to others. They check more often whether the other person understands them and in this way help the other person in the conversation. A native speaker thinks much less, speaks more and often faster, makes more jokes and uses expressions that others do not understand.

If a Briton says things like: "You've let the cat out of the bag", people who speak bad English are more likely to think of the liberation of a pet than of the disclosure of a secret. And when Americans use too many of their beloved sports metaphors - such as: "That's a ground ball" - it doesn't make the conversation any better (which, by the way, is roughly the meaning of this baseball expression).

"In lingua franca situations, the native speaker is at a disadvantage," says Jennifer Jenkins, professor of international English at the University of Southampton. "It is more difficult for them to understand the other person and to be understood."

She and colleagues advise native speakers to speak more concisely, directly and simply in international situations, and to check more often that they are really understood by asking questions and then listening carefully.

So the advice is actually that the minority, the native English speakers, should adapt to the majority, the people who speak bad English. They should worry less about the quality of the others' English and focus more on how they can get everyone to speak it without stress and reticence.

When I have another meeting with British colleagues soon, I will point this out to them in my best English and Dunglish.

Ben Tiggelaar writes weekly about personal leadership, work and management


I stubbornly keep talking Dutch on the terrace

Recently two words sounded that I hadn't heard in a while: 'English please'. They came from the mouth of a waitress on an Amsterdam terrace, with an air of complete naturalness. The sunshine and the beautiful view of the IJ could not prevent irritation from immediately bubbling up in me.

For years now, it has been customary in the hospitality industry and shops in Amsterdam - and I suspect also in Rotterdam, Utrecht and The Hague - to be served by people who do not speak a word of Dutch. During the lockdown, the phenomenon went underground for a while, but now it is back in full force. And it goes beyond the catering or clothing industry: just this week I had a spokesperson from the University of Amsterdam on the phone who did not speak Dutch.

You can shrug your shoulders at that - and many of my friends do. After all, we live in an internationally oriented country, even in a metropolis, globalisation is unstoppable, we Dutch are open-minded and besides, we all speak excellent English, right?

I think differently myself. An English-speaking waitress like this may belong to the category of minor inconveniences, but it does hide a major, persistent problem: the complete disdain the Dutch have for their own language.

Foreigners living here can confirm this: as soon as a Dutchman notices that you are not a native speaker, he switches to English. Let's just speak English. A non-Dutch speaking parent in the app group of the children's party or at the parents' evening? In the blink of an eye, English is the official language.

You may think this is incredibly open and cosmopolitan of you, but in reality it is laziness presented as tolerance. You disguise the fact that you don't feel like taking a bit longer in a conversation, or lending a hand with a word or phrase - something English speakers themselves constantly have to do when another Dutchman comes along with his limited English.

Don't do it! There is no need for it! That is the signal we send out to foreigners who want to learn our language.

This attitude is also accompanied by a hefty dose of hypocrisy: with an American expat or a German office mate, we prefer not to speak Dutch, but if a status holder or an imported bride(egom) from a non-Western country does not speak our language or has poor command of it, this is considered a paragon of poor integration.

The ease with which the waitress announces that she does not speak Dutch can only continue because hardly anyone is surprised. I am - and on the terrace I stubbornly continue to speak Dutch. And do you know what? It usually goes surprisingly well.

Thijs Niemantsverdriet


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:35
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Comprehensible and incomprehensible Dec 30, 2021

I don't mind people speaking English with a foreign accent (many people do) but there's comprehensible and incomprehensible.

Thomas T. Frost
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Cécile A.-C.
 
Hans Lenting
Hans Lenting
Netherlands
Member (2006)
German to Dutch
TOPIC STARTER
How come that I can understand it, with less command of English? Dec 30, 2021

Tom in London wrote:

I don't mind people speaking English with a foreign accent (many people do) but there's comprehensible and incomprehensible.


How come that – as a 'foreigner' – I can understand it, with less command of English? And you don't?

Can you explain that?


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:35
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Tremendous effort Dec 30, 2021

German Dutch Engineering Translation wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

I don't mind people speaking English with a foreign accent (many people do) but there's comprehensible and incomprehensible.


How come that – as a 'foreigner' – I can understand it, with less command of English? And you don't?

Can you explain that?



It's just about comprehensible, but only with tremendous effort.

(note added later) I think you find it understandable because you, and the speaker, both have a pidgin type of English that is understandable to non-native speakers.

I have a Nigerian friend who speaks pidgin and although it's supposed to be English, I don't understand much of it. He has taught me a few words. Example: jonnyjoscom = "Johnny just come" = an African who has just arrived from Africa for the first time and is completely new to the host country.

[Edited at 2021-12-30 13:55 GMT]


Thomas T. Frost
 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
No, but the closer the better Dec 30, 2021

Some native English speakers are more tolerant than others, shall we say, but I must admit I find it hard work listening to a strong and unfamiliar accent, whether native or foreign.

I guess it’s a bit like translation. People can understand the Google Translate version perfectly well but would rather read something polished that doesn’t require that extra effort from them.

As for the lingua franca issue, that is a balancing act I face every day. Writing English col
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Some native English speakers are more tolerant than others, shall we say, but I must admit I find it hard work listening to a strong and unfamiliar accent, whether native or foreign.

I guess it’s a bit like translation. People can understand the Google Translate version perfectly well but would rather read something polished that doesn’t require that extra effort from them.

As for the lingua franca issue, that is a balancing act I face every day. Writing English colourful enough for the natives but simple enough for those who are not. Oh, how I wish I translated into another language so I could just write exactly how I wanted to…
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Thomas T. Frost
Tom in London
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Lingua 5B
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English to Croatian
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About making videos… Dec 30, 2021

I would rather ask: Why do people who don’t know how to teach effectively with the right methodology record training videos? I am not referring to the video Tom had reffered to (haven’t even watched it), just speaking generally. I saw many native English speakers do it. The answer is: because they have a Google acount, microphone and camera (the three things needed to become a YouTube producer).

Thomas T. Frost
Kevin Fulton
Tom in London
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:35
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Ha ha Dec 30, 2021

Lingua 5B wrote:

I would rather ask: Why do people who don’t know how to teach effectively with the right methodology record training videos? I am not referring to the video Tom had reffered to (haven’t even watched it), just speaking generally. I saw many native English speakers do it. The answer is: because they have a Google acount, microphone and camera (the three things needed to become a YouTube producer).


But that isn't the complete skill set required


 
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
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Portugal
Local time: 12:35
Member (2007)
English to Portuguese
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English accents Dec 30, 2021

I am a foreigner and most of the video is incomprehensible to me. I must say though that I also find the English spoken with some Irish, Scottish or Mancunian accents very difficult to understand. I am a huge fan of cooking shows and it took me a few years of watching Masterchef Australia to become used to their accent. I can’t say the same for New Zealand…

Thomas T. Frost
 
Lingua 5B
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At United Nations. Dec 30, 2021

Teresa Borges wrote:

I am a foreigner and most of the video is incomprehensible to me. I must say though that I also find the English spoken with some Irish, Scottish or Mancunian accents very difficult to understand. I am a huge fan of cooking shows and it took me a few years of watching Masterchef Australia to become used to their accent. I can’t say the same for New Zealand…


I trained my ear when I worked in-house at United Nations, especially concerning a wide range of African accents. So I know how Africans speak French and how they speak English (many different accents). The only problem I had after that was when I visited a village in Scotland near Glasgow, but after a few weeks I got into their mode of speaking and it became more clear to me, as I simply understood the patterns and how they twist the words phonetically (Cow= cooh, mouse=moos, etc). I also worked with New Zealanders, they were not that difficult to understand, but it’s possible they did not use the full kiwi mode when speaking to me.

And yes, many Germans say Swiss German is difficult to understand for them. I don’t know why, but despite their accent, Swiss German is equally comprehensible to me. They tend to use a lot of French principles in their speech.

[Edited at 2021-12-30 15:32 GMT]


 
Jean Dimitriadis
Jean Dimitriadis  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
Disingenuous Dec 30, 2021

Are we talking about this video?

https://www.translatortools.net/blog/articles-and-workflows/180-workflow-convert-pdf-and-prepare

I find it quite comprehensible (although with a heavy accent) and the speaker is knowledgeable.

In fact, I think saying this guy's English is so bad that he shouldn't make En
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Are we talking about this video?

https://www.translatortools.net/blog/articles-and-workflows/180-workflow-convert-pdf-and-prepare

I find it quite comprehensible (although with a heavy accent) and the speaker is knowledgeable.

In fact, I think saying this guy's English is so bad that he shouldn't make English videos is disingenuous and derogatory.
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MollyRose
Christopher Schröder
Hans Lenting
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:35
Member (2008)
Italian to English
One of many Dec 30, 2021

Jean Dimitriadis didn't write (I'm misquoting him):

this guy's English is so bad that he shouldn't make English videos



That video is one of several completely incomprehensible videos I found when I was learning how to use CafeTran. In fact I don't think I found even one that was understandable.

Fortunately CafeTran is so easy to pick up that I was able to give up on the videos and just learn it by using it.

I would advise anyone who's approaching CafeTran for the first time just to jump in and use your intuition. Forget the videos and manuals. CafeTran is user-friendly and a delight to work with.

[Edited at 2021-12-30 16:16 GMT]


 
Jean Dimitriadis
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English to French
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No comment Dec 30, 2021

This video is not about CafeTran...

 
Lingua 5B
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English to Croatian
+ ...
It’s about technical training using video format? Dec 30, 2021

Jean Dimitriadis wrote:

This video is not about CafeTran...


It’s about technical training using video format? So what Tom said is related.

I never used videos when I first started with Trados. I found them very disorganized and tiring for learning (nothing to do with the accent). For me as a beginner, nicely designed how to guides were much more helpful (not those provided on the offical Trados website, they are cumbersome). After the beginning stage, I trained on my own just by using the software.

IMO some training content is not suited for video format, but if it helps someone else, I support it.


Thomas T. Frost
 
Jean Dimitriadis
Jean Dimitriadis  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
. Dec 30, 2021

The disparaging comment (see it quoted in the OP by Hans) was made below a specific video (not on CafeTran but on the use of FineReader and Transtools, which was posted in response to a translator asking about an "OCR: PDF to Word editing workshop", so it was quite fitting, see related thread).

It did not pertain to the merits of videos in technical training, but to the fact the speaker's English was "incomprehensible" (or rather "comprehensible, only with tremendous effort).
... See more
The disparaging comment (see it quoted in the OP by Hans) was made below a specific video (not on CafeTran but on the use of FineReader and Transtools, which was posted in response to a translator asking about an "OCR: PDF to Word editing workshop", so it was quite fitting, see related thread).

It did not pertain to the merits of videos in technical training, but to the fact the speaker's English was "incomprehensible" (or rather "comprehensible, only with tremendous effort).

I find the statement mind boggling because the speaker's English is fine, just with a heavy accent.

I can understand why one would comment on a poster who is claiming to translate into English while making blatant errors in their posts, but for training content made by non native speakers/trainers, I agree with the OP, and there is no need for English gatekeeping.

PS: As an aside, I too often prefer guides to videos for technical training, but the latter still have their use, especially if well made. That video was of the good kind.

[Edited at 2021-12-30 17:17 GMT]
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Christopher Schröder
Hans Lenting
Vera Schoen
 
Lingua 5B
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English to Croatian
+ ...
Native speakers… Dec 30, 2021

You can’t understand why it may be incomprehensible to a native speaker who didn’t have exposure to a variety of accents. Not only does a heavy accent affect the rhythm and prosody, it may also affect the meaning. As French, just try pronouncing “où” as “ou”, or “très” as “trés” and see for yourself. Now imagine a full 1,5 hr video riddled with such pronunciation errors. Would you stay until the end of the video?

But I do agree with you that Tom should/could
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You can’t understand why it may be incomprehensible to a native speaker who didn’t have exposure to a variety of accents. Not only does a heavy accent affect the rhythm and prosody, it may also affect the meaning. As French, just try pronouncing “où” as “ou”, or “très” as “trés” and see for yourself. Now imagine a full 1,5 hr video riddled with such pronunciation errors. Would you stay until the end of the video?

But I do agree with you that Tom should/could have skipped that comment. Or phrase it differently.

[Edited at 2021-12-30 17:35 GMT]
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Jean Dimitriadis
Hans Lenting
Christopher Schröder
 
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Do we all have to speak The Queen's English?






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