| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Should I stop working with outsourcers in China or India? Thread poster: Ahmad Hassaballa
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| I never work for Indian or Chinese agencies. | Mar 28, 2007 |
It is my personal decision. Even if they would offer me an appropriate price, I will not work for them in this situation. Because I am afraid, they would not pay. And if you live in an European country, you don#t have any means to influence the paying. Neither I work for Russian agencies. My fear is just too big, they would't pay. In these countries there is no possibility, to achieve afterwards anything in a legal way. It is a risk.
I do interpreting for Russian clients, but they have to ... See more It is my personal decision. Even if they would offer me an appropriate price, I will not work for them in this situation. Because I am afraid, they would not pay. And if you live in an European country, you don#t have any means to influence the paying. Neither I work for Russian agencies. My fear is just too big, they would't pay. In these countries there is no possibility, to achieve afterwards anything in a legal way. It is a risk.
I do interpreting for Russian clients, but they have to pay me immediately or to make a wire transfer before the job itself.
[Bearbeitet am 2007-03-28 13:26] ▲ Collapse
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I agree that working for agencies based in some particular countries can be rather dangerous. However, I would gladly accept any work from an agency from any part of the world as long as it had a good Blue Board record.
From my experience, I would advise always to take a look at the Blue Board, never to accept jobs from outsourcers with a poor record and to take all precautions when accepting jobs from those who have no record at all.
Cheers,
Luciano
| | | | | I have clients in Asia | Mar 28, 2007 |
I was surprised to find, after seeing all the rock-bottom rates offered by Asian agencies here, that there actually are agencies (yes! agencies and not direct clients) in Asia willing to pay Western rates in order to ensure they have anough competent people on board. I have been working for a Chinese agency who pays above average agency rates EVEN compared to their American counterparts (their rates approach direct client rates), they send material and references in good order, they are availabl... See more I was surprised to find, after seeing all the rock-bottom rates offered by Asian agencies here, that there actually are agencies (yes! agencies and not direct clients) in Asia willing to pay Western rates in order to ensure they have anough competent people on board. I have been working for a Chinese agency who pays above average agency rates EVEN compared to their American counterparts (their rates approach direct client rates), they send material and references in good order, they are available if you have questions, they manage their projects professionally and to top it off are really pleasant people. This particular agency surpasses North American agencies in a heartbeat!
I think that the cost of life is not really the determining factor here. It's just that there are so many people in Asia looking for work and at the same time so many agencies offering the work (what percentage of the world's population lives in Asia?) that people without the least experience get jobs, whereas in North America, it would be tricky to "pose" as a translator without a degree, certification or relevant experience. This means that the percentage of inexperienced (read: naive) people on the Asian translation market is much higher than elsewhere. So, it is not the agencies who refuse to pay sound rates, but rather the service providers who offer low rates because the competition is too tough and because most of them don't realize that half the money will go directly toward taxes and business expenses (education and certification is not available to most of our Asian collegues, so they try to manage without the knowledge/experience). The agencies, seeing how low those translators quote, jump on the occasion, like any of us probably would. The sad thing is that there are many experienced professionals over there who also get paid peanuts, because nothing else is available, or almost. It definitely isn't about paying less for bad quality vs. paying more for good quality.
I am with Ralf on this one. I got offers from France proposing a penny a word, which is nothing compared to double digit rates offered to me in China. We can't generalize. The market is in a bad shape today and those horrible rates pop up everywhere, not just in Asia. The only reason why we hear so much about low rates in Asia is because there are more people there, hence more translation jobs, hence more jobs at low rates.
When Asian agencies post jobs on here with sound rates, nobody cries foul, so we don't hear about them - but they ARE there.
[Edited at 2007-03-28 17:27] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | In Italy it is a question of individual honesty and good will | Mar 28, 2007 |
erika rubinstein wrote:
(...) In these countries there is no possibility, to achieve afterwards anything in a legal way. It is a risk.
The description Erika makes of the settlement system in some eastern countries, could be applied with very little differences to my country, Italy.
Some time ago someone calculated that, unless your credit is above 3,000 euros, it is really no use trying to recover it through the legal system in Italy. You have to just hope that your client is an honest and correct person/company, because it would cost you more in terms of both money and time to obtain what is due to you.
Civil law is so slow, bureaucratic and complicated that you might just as well give up.
This might induce some freelancers to avoid any risk and therefore not even try to work with Italian companies. But that would be a pity.
As everywhere else, you just have to work out who is serious and who isn't.
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sandhya 
Local time: 07:21
German to English
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| The other side of the globe | Mar 28, 2007 |
Hi Ahmad and all,
Just to sum up and possibly to sound repetitive!
1) As Ralf suggested, selection of clients is a personal issue, which must be based on a set of criteria defined by YOU!
2) Now, speaking from a supposedly "scary" eastern country called India. 99.5% of my clients are from Western countries. My experience thus far: All of them don't pay high rates and some don't pay at all. Many offer a low rate of 0.04 Euro simply because I am based in Indi... See more Hi Ahmad and all,
Just to sum up and possibly to sound repetitive!
1) As Ralf suggested, selection of clients is a personal issue, which must be based on a set of criteria defined by YOU!
2) Now, speaking from a supposedly "scary" eastern country called India. 99.5% of my clients are from Western countries. My experience thus far: All of them don't pay high rates and some don't pay at all. Many offer a low rate of 0.04 Euro simply because I am based in India... their logic?? Pretty illogical.
We are a global community! Our choices must be based strictly on personal experience and NOT on social prejudices.
While I agree that taking an eastern client to court is practically impossible, I can say the same for myself. If I had to take a European client to court, say in Germany, I would become a pauper.... logistics and financial issues simply do not make such an action feasible.
So how does one act? By choosing clients carefully, regardless of their location, either in China, India, Vietnam, Germany, France or even Mars
But generalisations about a particular region is as stupid as saying West is all good, East is all bad, which we know... errr,... isn't quite true!
So, to sum up - proceed with caution with ALL clients from West, East, North, South.
cheers
Sandhya
quote]erika rubinstein wrote:
It is my personal decision. Even if they would offer me an appropriate price, I will not work for them in this situation. Because I am afraid, they would not pay. And if you live in an European country, you don#t have any means to influence the paying. Neither I work for Russian agencies. My fear is just too big, they would't pay. In these countries there is no possibility, to achieve afterwards anything in a legal way. It is a risk.
I do interpreting for Russian clients, but they have to pay me immediately or to make a wire transfer before the job itself.
[Bearbeitet am 2007-03-28 13:26] [/quote]
[Edited at 2007-03-28 23:06] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:21
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | My experience | Mar 29, 2007 |
I won't say anything about Indian agencies, as being Indian myself, it might not have any objectivity, but as far as Chinese agencies are concerned, I have worked for several of them.
I have found them to be highly professional, with rates comparable to the best offered by European and American agencies. They were on the dot with the payment.
Their project managers were very polite, professional, understanding and down right nice people.
So, in this global,... See more I won't say anything about Indian agencies, as being Indian myself, it might not have any objectivity, but as far as Chinese agencies are concerned, I have worked for several of them.
I have found them to be highly professional, with rates comparable to the best offered by European and American agencies. They were on the dot with the payment.
Their project managers were very polite, professional, understanding and down right nice people.
So, in this global, multicultural world, xenophobia does not help.
Chinese is not a diry word nor is Indian.
Has this picking on Chinese and Indian firms anything to do with their booming economies and the fear pschosis this generates in people of European and American origin?
My advise, don't fear them, learn to deal with them. You will find it rewarding if you succeed. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Richard Benham
France
Local time: 02:51
German to English
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In memoriam | My own experience | Mar 29, 2007 |
I have had only one non-payer, a ProZ.com member, based in Florida. I have been cheated in other ways by a German translator/outsourcer. also a member of this site, based in Germany.
My experience of the Asian countries is limited, as I generally don't accept work from them on the basis of their rates. From memory, there was one from India, who paid in less than five minutes, and one from Hong Kong, my experiences with whom were on a par with any reasonable European agency.
... See more I have had only one non-payer, a ProZ.com member, based in Florida. I have been cheated in other ways by a German translator/outsourcer. also a member of this site, based in Germany.
My experience of the Asian countries is limited, as I generally don't accept work from them on the basis of their rates. From memory, there was one from India, who paid in less than five minutes, and one from Hong Kong, my experiences with whom were on a par with any reasonable European agency.
Oh, and a Dutch-based Welsh translator, also a member here, once wrote to me offering me 0.02 euro a word. Her own rate was 0.10, I have since discovered that she failed the same exam on which I base my claim to be a professionally qualified translator (the IoL DipTrans). So an unqualified translator is worth 5 times as much as a qualified one?
The point of this digression is that low payers, bad payers and non-payers are not confined to the so-called Third World. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Indian Clients | Mar 29, 2007 |
Well, I've been working with Indian clients for almost eleven years now... there were one or two exceptions, but other than that all of them have been really good clients. They pay good rates, on time. And some of these clients are the ones with whom I worked way back in 1996.
My first client was Indian... and so were my second and third clients.
I guess, it depends on how one chooses and deals with them.
I have clients in different countries and I do... See more Well, I've been working with Indian clients for almost eleven years now... there were one or two exceptions, but other than that all of them have been really good clients. They pay good rates, on time. And some of these clients are the ones with whom I worked way back in 1996.
My first client was Indian... and so were my second and third clients.
I guess, it depends on how one chooses and deals with them.
I have clients in different countries and I do not discriminate on any basis except their past record (blueboard and other lists). Still personally I don't trust blueboard 100% because it is not foolproof. I've had good clients who didn't have such good blueboard record and I've seen some fictitious records as well (sort friend/ relative saying that the person is a good outsourcer).
Well, it's difficult to know and verify these things on Internet. One can only learn from experience. And one bad experience with an agency from a country does not imply that all outsourcers from that country are bad.
I've never worked with Chinese clients. But Indian clients (at least those that I have) are usually extremely polite, pay on time and pay correct fees. Yes, sometimes there is a tendency to negotiate but if one is firm and shows that the quality of work one can give is at par with the price ... you get the price you ask. And I really value my Indian clients because they pay on time I just give my account number and the money is transferred on due date without any problems.
P.S: Just wanted to clarify that most of my Indian clients are direct clients.
[Edited at 2007-03-29 06:52] ▲ Collapse
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[quote]Richard Benham wrote:
I have had only one non-payer, a ProZ.com member, based in Florida. I have been cheated in other ways by a German translator/outsourcer. also a member of this site, based in Germany.
My experience of the Asian countries is limited, as I generally don't accept work from them on the basis of their rates. (....) ]
_____________
My experience is similar to yours, I have one non-payer from Belgium and I never had the occasion to work for indian and chinese outsourcers (but this is also true for outsourcers based in other countries, even in Europe) based on the rates they offer or the lack of info on them.
On the other hand, I did a very nice job for an agency based in Asia. The project was interesting, the rate was good and they paid about two weeks after delivery; I was impressed!
One has to be careful about choosing who to work with.
[Edited at 2007-03-29 07:03]
| | | | Tim Drayton
Cyprus
Local time: 03:51
Turkish to English
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| Two distinct issues | Mar 29, 2007 |
I think there are two very distinct issues here.
If a freelance translator enters a contractual relationship of his/her own free will with an agency to provide a translation at a very low rate I do not see what right the translator has to turn round and gripe about the low rate offered. If the translator feels that the rate is low then he/she should not accept the offer. Personally, I have little time for people who rant on about low rates in these fora. I don't know if others agree with m... See more I think there are two very distinct issues here.
If a freelance translator enters a contractual relationship of his/her own free will with an agency to provide a translation at a very low rate I do not see what right the translator has to turn round and gripe about the low rate offered. If the translator feels that the rate is low then he/she should not accept the offer. Personally, I have little time for people who rant on about low rates in these fora. I don't know if others agree with me, but I feel the time has come to impose a moritorium on posts along the lines of "job offer number XXXX was at a scandalously low rate". We are players in a free market and if you don't like the offer you decline it; you don't gripe about it.
On the other hand, if an agency enters into an agreement with a freelance translator and the translator provides a translation of the required quality within the agreed deadline, regardless of the rate, and the agency then pays late or does not pay at all, this is totally unacceptable. The agency deserves to be boycotted.
I believe that these principles have universal application regardless of whether the agency is located in America, Europe, Asia, Africa or Australasia. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 02:51
Spanish to English
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| It's not the country, it's the efficiency of the set-up (and pricing plays a role) | Mar 29, 2007 |
Presume that a direct client normally hires an agency, and that that agency works directly with the suppliers in its database.
Where one of those suppliers is a middleman farming out the job in such a way as to still skim acceptable profits from the activity, you have a circuit in which the file may go three or even four times around the globe before it finds a translator. (And what this implies for the money when the time comes to collect payment).
I've often underscor... See more Presume that a direct client normally hires an agency, and that that agency works directly with the suppliers in its database.
Where one of those suppliers is a middleman farming out the job in such a way as to still skim acceptable profits from the activity, you have a circuit in which the file may go three or even four times around the globe before it finds a translator. (And what this implies for the money when the time comes to collect payment).
I've often underscored the fact that there is such a thing as defensive pricing -- setting rates, regardless of cost of living, in such a way as to "screen" inefficient supply chains.
The moment any one of those players eliminates a screen, for any reason whatsoever (competitivity being the foremost), it exposes itself to a higher amount of disaster.
In this light, the argument of pricing competitivity can easily become a sham, particularly where the direct client feels no benefit from this competitivity. On the contrary, deadlines get tighter, so that no matter how reasonable that client has been about them, it would also run the double risk of undue delay brought about by the chain on one hand, and low quality due to badly-used turnaround time on the other. ▲ Collapse
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Parrot wrote:
In this light, the argument of pricing competitivity can easily become a sham, particularly where the direct client feels no benefit from this competitivity. On the contrary, deadlines get tighter, so that no matter how reasonable that client has been about them, it would also run the double risk of undue delay brought about by the chain on one hand, and low quality due to badly-used turnaround time on the other.
Of course, it's not that I was not aware of this but it's the first time, this is out there in the forums... one of the reasons I prefer direct clients
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S_Marta
Russian Federation
Local time: 04:51
English to Russian
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| "Two distinct issues" -- Tim Drayton, absolutely agree | Apr 1, 2007 |
I agree absolutely with Tim Drayton. "Low rates" are one thing and "dishonesty" (non-paying, paying with delays) is another.
| | | | Brandis (X)
Local time: 02:51
English to German
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| I agree with Marta | Apr 2, 2007 |
Hi!
""Low rates" are one thing and "dishonesty" (non-paying, paying with delays)"
sometimes no pay at all and they all hide behind the law and less can be done here. I am currently facing a situation with an indian outsourcer, despite all the proof I am not getting any payment at all. There are places the moderation cannot help either. Brandis
| | | | Navy Huang
China
Local time: 09:51
English to Chinese
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| With Tim Drayton-----Take it or leave it | Apr 2, 2007 |
Tim Drayton wrote:
I think there are two very distinct issues here.
If a freelance translator enters a contractual relationship of his/her own free will with an agency to provide a translation at a very low rate I do not see what right the translator has to turn round and gripe about the low rate offered. If the translator feels that the rate is low then he/she should not accept the offer. Personally, I have little time for people who rant on about low rates in these fora. I don't know if others agree with me, but I feel the time has come to impose a moritorium on posts along the lines of "job offer number XXXX was at a scandalously low rate". We are players in a free market and if you don't like the offer you decline it; you don't gripe about it.
On the other hand, if an agency enters into an agreement with a freelance translator and the translator provides a translation of the required quality within the agreed deadline, regardless of the rate, and the agency then pays late or does not pay at all, this is totally unacceptable. The agency deserves to be boycotted.
I believe that these principles have universal application regardless of whether the agency is located in America, Europe, Asia, Africa or Australasia.
Think carefully before entering into any serious commitment and once agreed, no more rant.
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