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The extra mile Thread poster: Andrew Morris
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I quite agree that forums should contain a whole gamut of opinions, both positive and negative. Nobody wants that to change.
[Edited at 2019-05-04 18:05 GMT]
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Andrew Morris
Spain
Local time: 06:28
Member (2019)
TOPIC STARTER | Invisible efforts | May 4, 2019 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
The efforts proz seems to be actively and increasingly making to turn these fora into some sort of utopia, where only "positive" and "results-oriented" stuff can exist and be seen, are not only unrealistic, but also positively wrong,
I'm sorry, but that is a completely absurd claim, on any basis.
If by that you mean my 5 or so posts in the last few weeks*, amid hundreds of others, then you are attributing to me FAR more power than I would ever dream of. Weirdly flattering, but deeply misguided.
I have seen posts expressing every shade of opinion, many of which differ from mine. I have agreed with comments by you, "wry Tom" and many others, on occasions.
Whether it's about my posts or not, I see no such "efforts". So can we please drop the conspiracy act here? The "ProZ.com is out to get us" shtick?
I mean, heaven forbid we should try to focus on positive things and helping people improve their lot as translators, right? That would be plainly unconscionable.
And as for "results"... good god. Please, no results! Perish the thought.
Once again, a little head of steam appears to be building up. My advice this time round would be: save your breath. I have insulted neither the forum (which I am beginning to enjoy) nor anyone's persona and this time the "little posse in a B-movie Western act" is doomed to failure.
This thread has been, as I have said a few times, an interesting discussion. But if it's going to turn into the Wild West, then I'll just switch over to a more interesting channel and leave you to scrap it out.
*PS, I am loathe to reach this interpretation for fear of being accused of making this about me, but I can't imagine what else you can mean. I will very happily stand corrected if you are good enough to explain, with evidence, quotations and examples.
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Jan Truper 
Germany
Local time: 06:28
English to German
| It's Proz' business model, not a conspiracy | May 4, 2019 |
Andrew Morris wrote:
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
The efforts proz seems to be actively and increasingly making to turn these fora into some sort of utopia, where only "positive" and "results-oriented" stuff can exist and be seen, are not only unrealistic, but also positively wrong,
I'm sorry, but that is a completely absurd claim, on any basis.
If by that you mean my 5 or so posts in the last few weeks*, amid hundreds of others, then you are attributing to me FAR more power than I would ever dream of. Flattering, but deeply misguided.
I have seen posts expressing every shade of opinion, many of which differ from mine. I have agreed with comments by you, "wry Tom" and many others, on occasions. I see no such "efforts". Can we please drop the conspiracy act here? The "ProZ.com is out to get us" shtick?
Mirko was actually quoting verbatim from another thread:
https://www.proz.com/forum/site_forums/334168-locked_threads_disappear_from_the_"recent_translation_forum_posts"_page-page3.html#2791910
That thread has been hidden from public view, as have others.
So it is not a conspiracy act and no shtick, it's Proz' current business model.
Edit:
If the above link does not work, try this: https://www.proz.com/forum/52
It's the thread called
Locked threads disappear from the "Recent Translation forum posts" page
[Edited at 2019-05-04 16:15 GMT]
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Andrew Morris
Spain
Local time: 06:28
Member (2019)
TOPIC STARTER | You've lost me now. | May 4, 2019 |
Jan Truper wrote:
That thread has been hidden from public view, as have others.
So it is not a conspiracy act and no shtick, it's Proz' current business model.
So the "business model", defined by my dictionary as "a plan for the successful operation of a business, identifying sources of revenue, the intended customer base, products, and details of financing" actually revolves around censorship and the hiding of certain threads?
Can you explain? I am genuinely intrigued. I don't have an MBA, it's true, so I'm struggling a bit here.
Edited to add:
PS, if you are quoting from another thread, especially verbatim, basic academic convention requires that you indicate that, for the benefit of your readers.
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Jan Truper
Germany
Local time: 06:28
English to German
Andrew Morris wrote:
Jan Truper wrote:
That thread has been hidden from public view, as have others.
So it is not a conspiracy act and no shtick, it's Proz' current business model.
So the "business model", defined by my dictionary as "a plan for the successful operation of a business, identifying sources of revenue, the intended customer base, products, and details of financing" actually revolves around censorship and hiding of certain threads?
Can you explain? I am genuinely intrigued. I don't have an MBA, it's true, so I'm struggling a bit here.
I cannot explain something I did not say.
But I will say the following: Proz' business model currently involves a secretive (it happens without anybody getting wind of it) form of censorship by hiding certain threads from public view.
In the thread I linked, which is dealing with the question of why certain thread disappear from public view, on page 3, site staff member Jared Tabor wrote:
"The site has certain areas which might be considered "prime real estate" in the sense that they tend to command more attention and time from users than others. In the case of the forums, "positive, results-oriented environment" and "a place to ask for, and receive help related to translation and the translation business" are the criteria that used in deciding what gets pushed in front of users."
That's what Mirko was quoting from.
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Andrew Morris
Spain
Local time: 06:28
Member (2019)
TOPIC STARTER
Jan Truper wrote:
In the thread I linked, which is dealing with the question of why certain thread disappear from public view, on page 3, site staff member Jared Tabor wrote:
"The site has certain areas which might be considered "prime real estate" in the sense that they tend to command more attention and time from users than others. In the case of the forums, "positive, results-oriented environment" and "a place to ask for, and receive help related to translation and the translation business" are the criteria that used in deciding what gets pushed in front of users."
That's what Mirko was quoting from.
Well in that case, a link would have been helpful from Mirko in the first place.
And without deleting my earlier comment, (out of courtesy to the forum) I very happily withdraw the implication he was referring to me.
There, done.
But let's return to the fray and ask a simple question: why on earth are we afraid of a "positive, results-oriented environment"?
Isn't that what we all want? Or do we want a negative environment that prevents translators from achieving results?
I'm trying hard here not to put words into anyone's mouth, but I can't read this any other way.
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| Please stop adding oil to the fire | Back on topic | May 4, 2019 |
I think a self-appointed vigilante is the last thing this forum needs [Edit: I'm referring to the "attacking the attackers" argument].
And I am growing wary of the toxicity and personal level of comments and reactions in general. This is not a call for more “moderation” [in the form of moderators, be them from the ProZ.team or the ProZ staff], just for more “moderation” from participants.
OK, now back on topic:
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According to what one... See more I think a self-appointed vigilante is the last thing this forum needs [Edit: I'm referring to the "attacking the attackers" argument].
And I am growing wary of the toxicity and personal level of comments and reactions in general. This is not a call for more “moderation” [in the form of moderators, be them from the ProZ.team or the ProZ staff], just for more “moderation” from participants.
OK, now back on topic:
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According to what one could call the “any-benefit” approach to decision-making, if anything good can possibly come of a new tool, strategy, lesson or unit, initiative, etc., then it’s worth using.
Going the extra mile can result in the client taking the frequent-flyer program (as in more repeat business). It can also have adverse effects, especially if it makes burning the midnight oil become the expected behavior.
So, I’d say anecdotal evidence does not prove anything.
Many of the described approaches sound valid, and all require cautious consideration.
As for focusing on soft skills versus on quality, these concepts are not antithetical. However their required “focus” is. In today’s “attention economy”, many aspects are vying for our attention and require us to get our priorities straight.
I would agree with Chris S. about stressing the quality factor when the goal is ensuring repeat business.
It is certainly not a given. Striving for it is stepping away, not toward commodification, whether we call what we deliver a product or a service.
Jean
[Edited at 2019-05-04 16:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Andrew Morris
Spain
Local time: 06:28
Member (2019)
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for taking us back on topic.
You are right, anecdotes prove nothing. But then again, building a business is an art, not a science, and anecdotes can point to mini-truths (for some, not for others).
Which is why business books are full of them, otherwise they become dry do-it-by-numbers manuals.
I don't think, to be fair, that anyone has ever said quality is unimportant. Ever. The only "given" cited above is that there shou... See more Thanks for taking us back on topic.
You are right, anecdotes prove nothing. But then again, building a business is an art, not a science, and anecdotes can point to mini-truths (for some, not for others).
Which is why business books are full of them, otherwise they become dry do-it-by-numbers manuals.
I don't think, to be fair, that anyone has ever said quality is unimportant. Ever. The only "given" cited above is that there should be quality, not that it always exists. No one would be quite idiotic enough to say that.
I say let's move beyond commodification or "supply" towards service. Not everyone shares that view. But at least it is (and has been so far) a healthy debate. ▲ Collapse
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Andrew Morris wrote:
Which suggests that between having found your true vocation and earning a packet (as you told us), you must be a deeply contented human being, right? Right?
So why is it I get a sense that...?
Oh, forget it.
Why do you feel the need to put other people down whenever they air an opinion you do not share?
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Andrew Morris
Spain
Local time: 06:28
Member (2019)
TOPIC STARTER | The day irony died | May 6, 2019 |
Chris S wrote:
Andrew Morris wrote:
Which suggests that between having found your true vocation and earning a packet (as you told us), you must be a deeply contented human being, right? Right?
So why is it I get a sense that...?
Oh, forget it.
Why do you feel the need to put other people down whenever they air an opinion you do not share?
Says the man who writes describing anyone who has an ounce of entrepreneurial nous as “full-time schmoozers”???????
As Jean says, can we stick to the topic please?
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| Translating vs marketing | May 6, 2019 |
Andrew Morris wrote:
As Jean says, can we stick to the topic please?
Everything was cordial and on topic until you decided to put me down again.
In keeping with the original post, I shared entirely uncontroversially how I started to build up a translation company but found that a life of schmoozing and checking wasn't for me.
Some translators may enjoy spending their time networking and marketing rather than translating, and that's absolutely fine.
But I think most will be better served, both financially and temperamentally, by focusing on being good at translating rather than being good at marketing.
After all, self-promotion in the translation world can never go much beyond "I'm really good, honest", which is exactly what everyone else is saying.
So the only way to stand out is to be outstanding.
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Andrew Morris
Spain
Local time: 06:28
Member (2019)
TOPIC STARTER | Back on track | May 6, 2019 |
Good to be back on track.
But it's clearly a circular track. We have all agreed, many times now, that being "good at translating" is the basis of everything.
And for those translators who want to work for agencies for the rest of their lives, and avoid any marketing or "schmoozing", well then that's possibly all it takes? I've always agreed that it's fine to set out our stall and receive work in that way.
It... See more Good to be back on track.
But it's clearly a circular track. We have all agreed, many times now, that being "good at translating" is the basis of everything.
And for those translators who want to work for agencies for the rest of their lives, and avoid any marketing or "schmoozing", well then that's possibly all it takes? I've always agreed that it's fine to set out our stall and receive work in that way.
It's just not the way I or the people I most admire have chosen.
Incidentally, a little language awareness might help when using loaded words:
schmooze
(verb [no object]
talk intimately and cosily; gossip: we schmooze about New York, what she misses.
• [with object] talk in a cosy and intimate manner to (someone), typically in order to manipulate them: she schmoozed every casting agent in town.
Is that really what you think entrepreneurial translators do? Hang around chewing the fat and being cosy? That's a pretty weird vision, in my opinion.
Whatever your own personal goals, this forum also caters to those with ambitions. I met a few in Bologna who read what ProZ.com provides, both here and especially in the social media, and who DO want to grow their business. And yes, to solve customer problems, offer solutions, outsource and make money.
What's more, they might want to do that as well as being good at what they do. These are not mutually exclusive, a fact that seems to escape you. ▲ Collapse
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Andrew Morris wrote:
Says the man who writes describing anyone who has an ounce of entrepreneurial nous as “full-time schmoozers”???????
For the record, I didn't say that. And neither did you originally. Stealthily editing previous posts like this in the light of subsequent posts doesn't seem very honest to me.
Incidentally, a little language awareness might help when using loaded words:
Is it possible for you to go a whole post without putting someone down?
I'm just making the legitimate point that there is another way. For you, entrepreneurial spirit and ambition seem to be about landing direct clients and outsourcing. But that's just one possible career path. The trouble with mixing translation with anything else is that one will inevitably detract from the other.
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Andrew Morris
Spain
Local time: 06:28
Member (2019)
TOPIC STARTER | Ever decreasing circles | May 6, 2019 |
Chris S wrote:
Andrew Morris wrote:
Says the man who writes describing anyone who has an ounce of entrepreneurial nous as “full-time schmoozers”???????
For the record, I didn't say that.
Actually, "full-time schmoozers" (the only part in quotation marks and therefore the only part that constitutes a quote) is exactly what you said. That's pretty easily verified. I refer my learned colleague to Exhibit A, Page 5, Post 8.
Incidentally, a little language awareness might help when using loaded words:
Is it possible for you to go a whole post without putting someone down?
Quite possibly not. That's just my style, or rather my style here, since beginning to write here. But I am surprised by your hyper-sensitivity, my dear chap. You can certainly dish it out, as you showed me in my first ever post here and I have seen in other posts passim, where I have not so much as set foot.
Edited to add:
Objection! In fact you will see that in very many posts in this very thread, I don't put anyone down. It's just you bring out the best in me.
So which is it to be? Either we all remain polite, or we all joust. But you can't have two different systems for me and for you. I thought we'd established that. And if we haven't, well we have now. I have carte blanche from ProZ.com to engage as I see fit.
I'm just making the legitimate point that there is another way. For you, entrepreneurial spirit and ambition seem to be about landing direct clients and outsourcing. But that's just one possible career path.
But I said more or less exactly that (the multitude of career paths bit) in my previous comment. So now I am agreeing with you agreeing with me.
The trouble with mixing translation with anything else is that one will inevitably detract from the other.
No, not inevitably. That's just wrong and downright misleading.
Ask Chris Durban, who runs a phenomenally successful business. Or Dominique Jonkers. Or just about anyone.
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TonyTK
German to English
+ ...
Andrew Morris wrote:
Ask Chris Durban, who runs a phenomenally successful business ...
That's the best information I've seen in this thread so far. Asking the excellent Chris Durban is always a good idea.
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