Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
la métallurgie du cuivre et l\'orfèvrerie
English translation:
the art of working gold, silver and copper
Added to glossary by
Charles Davis
Aug 13, 2017 20:05
6 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
métallurgie...l'orfèvrerie
French to English
Art/Literary
Archaeology
ancient art
Hi again!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors.
CONTEXT: Patine. - Le pouvoir réfléchissant n'était pas uniquement obtenu par le poli du métal sous son aspect le plus brillant. On savait aussi l'obtenir d'une patine sombre.
Les Égyptiens appréciaient au moins autant que nous la beauté dont une patine naturelle ou artificielle pare les métaux. En cela comme en tout ce qui touche à la métallurgie du cuivre et ***à l'orfèvrerie***, ils étaient passés maîtres.
SOME ATTEMPTS: In this, as with anything related to copper metallurgy and
to the art of silver- and goldsmithing, they became masters.
to silver- and goldsmithing trades, they became masters.
to silver- and goldsmithing trades, they became masters.
to silver- and goldmithery, they become masters
ISSUE: Could my author just be saying: anything related to copper, silver, and gold metallurgy?
In English there's plenty of examples of "gold metallurgy" and "silver metallurgy" but in French I searched for "métallurgie d'or" and "métallurgie d'argent" but it's incredibly rare. So I'm wondering if this is the way to say "silver and gold metalllurgy" in French?
Thanks in advance for any clarification or suggestions on how best to translate this!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors.
CONTEXT: Patine. - Le pouvoir réfléchissant n'était pas uniquement obtenu par le poli du métal sous son aspect le plus brillant. On savait aussi l'obtenir d'une patine sombre.
Les Égyptiens appréciaient au moins autant que nous la beauté dont une patine naturelle ou artificielle pare les métaux. En cela comme en tout ce qui touche à la métallurgie du cuivre et ***à l'orfèvrerie***, ils étaient passés maîtres.
SOME ATTEMPTS: In this, as with anything related to copper metallurgy and
to the art of silver- and goldsmithing, they became masters.
to silver- and goldsmithing trades, they became masters.
to silver- and goldsmithing trades, they became masters.
to silver- and goldmithery, they become masters
ISSUE: Could my author just be saying: anything related to copper, silver, and gold metallurgy?
In English there's plenty of examples of "gold metallurgy" and "silver metallurgy" but in French I searched for "métallurgie d'or" and "métallurgie d'argent" but it's incredibly rare. So I'm wondering if this is the way to say "silver and gold metalllurgy" in French?
Thanks in advance for any clarification or suggestions on how best to translate this!
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +2 | working gold, silver and copper |
Charles Davis
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| 4 +1 | working with copper or silver- or goldsmithing |
Christopher Crockett
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| 4 | copper, silver and gold (metallurgy) |
philgoddard
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Change log
Aug 14, 2017 17:26: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "métallurgie...l\\\'orfèvrerie" to "métallurgie...l\'orfèvrerie "
Aug 16, 2017 07:46: Charles Davis changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/2326420">angela3thomas's</a> old entry - "métallurgie...l\'orfèvrerie "" to ""working gold, silver and copper""
Proposed translations
+2
36 mins
French term (edited):
métallurgie...l\'orfèvrerie
Selected
working gold, silver and copper
I don't think it's enough just to mention the metals. In my opinion, the word "working" ought to be in there. Orfèvrerie is an art and craft, not a technology; it's not about smelting gold and silver but about working them to produce decorative objects.
Métallurgie is a (partially) false friend and the word "metallurgy" should certainly not appear here. In English it means the science and technology of metals. It can mean that in French, but it can also mean "travail des métaux" ( métallurgie de transformation, http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/métallurgie ), and that's what it must mean here: "métallurgie du cuivre" means working copper, just as "orfèvrerie" means working gold and silver (or just gold, but I think we should assume that silver is included too). I am sure that the three metals are being referred to in the same way.
Anything with "goldsmith" or "silversmith" is awkward, as your suggestions show. I think just "working gold, silver and copper" is the way to go. The order of the metals can be as you wish, but to me the most natural order is from greater to lesser value.
"Mesopotamian craftsmen excelled in the technique of working gold, silver, and copper"
https://archive.org/stream/historyofart00invinc/historyofart...
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Note added at 5 hrs (2017-08-14 01:56:49 GMT)
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In fact I would be inclined to make it even more specific, and say "the art of working gold, silver and copper".
As I said in my response to Phil, if you say: "in that, as in everything to do with copper, gold and silver, they were past masters", the reader is very likely to understand that the Egyptians were experts in all aspects of these metals, not just in working them artistically. This may be true (it probably is), but it is certainly not what the author is saying here.
Métallurgie is a (partially) false friend and the word "metallurgy" should certainly not appear here. In English it means the science and technology of metals. It can mean that in French, but it can also mean "travail des métaux" ( métallurgie de transformation, http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/métallurgie ), and that's what it must mean here: "métallurgie du cuivre" means working copper, just as "orfèvrerie" means working gold and silver (or just gold, but I think we should assume that silver is included too). I am sure that the three metals are being referred to in the same way.
Anything with "goldsmith" or "silversmith" is awkward, as your suggestions show. I think just "working gold, silver and copper" is the way to go. The order of the metals can be as you wish, but to me the most natural order is from greater to lesser value.
"Mesopotamian craftsmen excelled in the technique of working gold, silver, and copper"
https://archive.org/stream/historyofart00invinc/historyofart...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2017-08-14 01:56:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In fact I would be inclined to make it even more specific, and say "the art of working gold, silver and copper".
As I said in my response to Phil, if you say: "in that, as in everything to do with copper, gold and silver, they were past masters", the reader is very likely to understand that the Egyptians were experts in all aspects of these metals, not just in working them artistically. This may be true (it probably is), but it is certainly not what the author is saying here.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
philgoddard
: It's obvious from the context that it's about working these metals, not making them. They're talking about how beautiful the mirrors are.
3 hrs
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No, I think you're wrong. If you don't include a verb you're saying that they were experts in patinas and everything else to do with these metals. There's no good argument for omitting it; you save one word, but change the meaning.
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| agree |
Tony M
: Excellent analysis — totally agree with your arguments. 'orfèvrerie' is always both gold and silver, since 'argentfèvrerie' doesn't exist, niether does 'cuivrefèvrerie', hence the unavoidable use of 'métallurgie' here. Edit gloss?
10 hrs
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Thanks very much, Tony! // Done. Thanks for the reminder. OK now?
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| agree |
Christopher Crockett
2 days 19 hrs
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Thank you very much, Christopher
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "An essential, educational, enlightening, and clear explanation. Thank you so, so much! And thanks to everyone else who weighed in."
9 mins
philgoddard
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Six languages into flawless English
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English, Spanish to English, and 4 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
52
French term (edited):
métallurgie...l\'orfèvrerie
copper, silver and gold (metallurgy)
I would leave out "metallurgy" as I think it goes without saying when you've just listed three metals. But you could include it if you want to.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Tony M
: I agree with Charles: we do need to keep the notion of 'working' here, and 'metallurgy' is a false friend in this instance.
10 hrs
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If you say someone is a master of gold, it means they're a master at making things out of gold, not making the metal - gold is gold.
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+1
17 hrs
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
131
French term (edited):
métallurgie...l\'orfèvrerie
working with copper or silver- or goldsmithing
"The Egyptians fully appreciated the beauty of a patina (natural or artificial) as much as we do. In that respect, as in everything having to do with working with copper or with silver- or goldsmithing, they were supreme masters."
I prefer your own translation of orfèvrerie as "silver- or goldsmithing."
Note that, though the OED allows as how "smithing" can apply to "the art or process of fashioning or forging [any] metals"
http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/182662?redirectedFrom=smithing...
"coppersmithing" remains somewhat awkward, and "working with copper" is, for the reasons Charles mentions, preferable to trying to do anything with "metallurgy."
I prefer your own translation of orfèvrerie as "silver- or goldsmithing."
Note that, though the OED allows as how "smithing" can apply to "the art or process of fashioning or forging [any] metals"
http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/182662?redirectedFrom=smithing...
"coppersmithing" remains somewhat awkward, and "working with copper" is, for the reasons Charles mentions, preferable to trying to do anything with "metallurgy."
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
writeaway
2 days 1 hr
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Thanks, Write. Much as I hate not being able to make a verb out of a proper name and loosing "smithing," perhaps Charles' answer is superior.
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Discussion
How one could obtain a "patine sombre" on a bronze or silver surface (as opposed to the mere tarnishing due to natural oxidation) --much less on a gold surface, which was not subject to oxidation at all-- must be one of the great Mysteries which the Egyptian métallurgists solved but seems to have been lost in the interval.