Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

gravé ou sculpté en creux

English translation:

engraved or sculpted in low relief

Added to glossary by angela3thomas
Jul 19, 2017 17:05
6 yrs ago
3 viewers *
French term

gravé ou sculpté en creux

French to English Art/Literary Archaeology ancient art
Hi again!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors. Catalog entry.
CONTEXT: 44102. Moule gabarit pour manche de miroir ou écrin de miroir. - Bois. [....] Cet objet est une tablette d'acacia faite de deux lais longitudinaux assemblés à la colle. On y a ***gravé ou sculpté en creux*** dans la moitié inférieure, un manche de miroir en forme de GLYPH, mesurant 0 m. 11 cent. de long et 0 m. 01 cent. de profondeur dans les parties les plus creuses.

Ignore the 44012 on the plate, it should read 44102.
https://books.google.com/books?id=qhs2AQAAMAAJ last plate # XXV
I tried to get the link to the actual plate:
https://books.google.com/booksid=qhs2AQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA53&dq="M...
SAME OBJECT, DIFFERENT SOURCES:
"Upon the upper shelf is a wooden plaque (n° 936), its height is 0 m. 21 cent., its width 0 m. 129 mill. Upon its surface the shapes of the handle of a mirror and two little pans have been carefully scooped out. The wax was run into these hollows, and the moulds which were used in casting the articles in question were built up upon it."
"Plaque en bois, où l'on a évidé avec soin les formes d'un manche de miroir et de deux petits godets. On y coulait de la cire sur laquelle on établissait ensuite les moules qui servaient à la fonte des objets en question."

ATTEMPT:On the bottom half, a GLYPH-shaped mirror handle, measuring 11-cm long and as much as 1-cm deep in places, was engraved or carved into grooves.
ISSUE: Not sure if I've translated this correctly as I found that "en creux" can go with either or both sculpté and gravé. Engraved or sculpted sound odd, to me it should be fairly easy to differentiate between them.
Thanks in advance for any clarification!

Discussion

Christopher Crockett Jul 21, 2017:
@ B. D. That's my sense of "intaglio" as well --very close to engraving, though perhaps very deep engraving; it is, I believe, the term always used to in the context of seal matrices, never "sunken relief."

But, it is certainly not at all my field.

I thought about the idea that the sunken relief technique might have been employed for "protective" purposes; certainly the lower planes of the sunken surfaces would have been somewhat shielded from (primarily) wind erosion. And that might be a consideration, in stone as "soft" as limestone (as opposed to, say, granite).

And here's an example of both sunken and "standard" reliefs on the same building,

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B8G0BA/stone-relief-carving-on-the-...

and perhaps the wear is a bit more apparent in the latter.

But that is from a very late temple from only the 4th c. B.C. --thus almost modern, by comparison.

All these reliefs were certainly covered with polychromy, and the protective factor might have been more of a consideration on that account. The visual effect of the harsh shadow outline might have played a role as well.

But I also think that something else might have been at work.
B D Finch Jul 21, 2017:
@Christopher Interesting. I agree with you about "intaglio", which I associate with print making. Sunken reliefs would give some protection to the reliefs and, if the anchient Egyptians had the decorators in, they'd just need to stick some boards across the projecting frames to keep their reliefs safe.
Christopher Crockett Jul 21, 2017:
Another reason for rejecting "counter relief" is that, to my eye, what we have within all those sunken reliefs

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1375/761157146_5f85a65e96_o.jp...

http://www.thefakebusters.com/relief carving/photos relief c...

are (as it were) "regular" reliefs which have been "sunken" to a level below that of the overall surface plane --that is, the forms are carefully and fully articulated *within* the outline which defines the sunken area.

If one were to, say, carve away the area around the figure --i.e., outside of the outline-- down to the level of the lowest plane within the carving, one would end up with a "true" (projecting) relief.

The only thing which is different in a sunken relief is that it is "reversed" (hence my first attempt to describe it) and the "relief" exists --in toto and in detail-- at the bottom of the defining outline.

I'm sure that there must exist some discussion about the "meaning" of this curious form of "relief" making --so common among the Egyptians; it was considerably more difficult to execute than "normal" projecting relief, so must have been done for a very good reason.

I have no idea what that reason might have been, however.
Christopher Crockett Jul 21, 2017:
@ Angela "1. it was used for hollow-cast molding" = casting a (bronze) handle using the Lost Wax process? Yes.

B.'s option 2. seems very unlikely --if not nonsensical.

I fail to see how lighting could be responsible for what clearly seems to be a heavy shadow on the "fond" across the top of the handle (look at the photo upside down --that will usually make the image "flip" from relief to sunken relief; and it doesn't.)

So, which are you going to believe: the Maspero/Bénéditi description or your own Lying Eyes?

Mercifully, the Translator doesn't have to solve that question --only translate what the delusional guy has written.
Christopher Crockett Jul 21, 2017:
@ Angela I'd vote strongly against "counter relief":

1) because I have never, ever come across the term (always my first criterion);

b) because it is rather vague and not really descriptive;

iii) because nearly all of The Innernets (as Duhbya Bush used to charmingly refer to them) rebel against it.

A google on "counter relief" + Egypt yields a paltry 4,390 hits:

https://www.google.com/search?q="counter relief" egypt&ie=ut...

While one on "sunken relief" + Egypt gets us 135,00:

https://www.google.com/search?q="sunken relief" egypt&ie=utf...

How can The Innernets be wrong?

The term I was searching for early on in this discussion was "sunken relief" --which is quite common in the literature on Egyptian art.

I suppose that I have also seen "intaglio" in descriptions of this sculpture but, as I said, I associate it more often with small-scale stuff like seal matrices.

"cavo-rilievo" is totally unknown to me --and gets a minuscule 1,900 votes

https://www.google.com/search?q="cavo-rilievo" egypt&ie=utf-...

Including that Wiki article where you got your quote from, which refers to "sunk [sic] relief"

So:

"Engraved or sculpted in sunken relief"



angela3thomas (asker) Jul 20, 2017:
counter-relief? "The opposite of relief sculpture is counter-relief, intaglio, or cavo-rilievo, where the form is cut into the field or background rather than rising from it." You'd think a plate would be helpful, but here it's even more confusing. The handle and pots look raised to me too. Further down GB talks about 2 hypothesis: 1. it was used for hollow-cast molding; 2. or it was just a mini toiletry kit/case. So I'm thinking it must be the photographer's lighting. Esp. since Maspero says "scooped out".
Christopher Crockett Jul 20, 2017:
@ B D Yes, that works, technically.

A foolish prejudice perhaps, but I just have never liked that word --at least as it applies to sculpture; to my mind it is best applied to the "minor arts" (particularly) the making of seal matrices, from Sumerian cylinder seals (made of stone)

http://tinyurl.com/ycf43ym6

to medieval and modern ones made of steel or iron

http://tinyurl.com/y75bhrbh

To my (jaundiced?) eye, I would prefer to reserve "intaglio" for that kind of work, rather than to the Egyptian monumental sculpture done in "sunken relief."

Bénéditi's "mold" for a mirror handle to be executed in the lost wax process falls somewhat in between these two extremes (seal matrices and monumental sculptures), so I suppose the term "intaglio" could be applied to it; but I just don't like it, greatly preferring "sunken relief."

It may (or may not) be significant that Bénéditi does not use "intaglio" --even though he was surely acquainted with the term.

"Sunken relief" is commonly used in English texts; I wonder what the normal French term might be.
B D Finch Jul 20, 2017:
@Christopher I think the word you were trying to recall is "intaglio".
Christopher Crockett Jul 19, 2017:
Yes, Phil, but what do you make of the strong shadows, which we can see in the plate?

(Surely B. has deliberately had the strong, raking lighting set up to make the relief clearer in the photograph.)

I can't for the life of me see how that shadow at the top (particularly) could possibly suggest that the thing is in "reverse relief" (there may be another term for that technique --so commonly found in Egyptian wall sculpture, but I can't think of what it is at present).

And yet, in order to serve as a *mold* for the lost wax process, it would *have* to be in reverse relief, would it not??

What am I missing here?
philgoddard Jul 19, 2017:
"Gravé" and "sculpté en creux" both mean the same thing as far as I can see. It means carved out, incised or, as your text says, scooped. Presumably "en creux" has been added to emphasise that it's concave and not convex.

Proposed translations

13 mins
Selected

engraved or sculpted in low relief

Only problem I have with this is that, in the plate, from the shadows it casts, it looks to me like the handle is in "positive" relief, relative to the background.

How it would serve as a [lost wax] "moule" if this were the case is beyond me.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2017-07-19 17:42:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Phil is right, of course:

"RELIEF: a. Moulding, carving, stamping, etc., in which the design **stands out from a plane surface** so as to have a natural and solid appearance. Also: work done in this way; the part which so projects." --OED

The answer lies in the proper terminology for "reverse relief" --in which the "design" is embedded below the surface of the plane, rather than "standing out" from it.

What the hell is that called?

The only thing I can think of is to insert "reverse" before "relief" in my answer.

It's a "reverse low relief"

But I'm not happy with that.

It seems to me that, at least after the earliest dynasties, Egyptian figurative relief sculpture (including hieroglyphic lettering) was as often in (literal) relief --i.e., "positive," standing out from the surface plane-- as it was in "negative" relief.

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Note added at 50 mins (2017-07-19 17:56:47 GMT)
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Just to make clear what I'm talking about...

"Positive" ["regular"] Relief:

http://cdn.history.com/sites/2/2014/01/hesire-relief-P.jpeg (Which looks like it's pretty early, to me, first few dynasties.)

http://www.veniceclayartists.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/... (somewhat later, judging by the style and the "blue crown" which I believe did not come in before the Middle Kingdom.)

And what I'm calling "reverse relief" (the figures *below* the surface ground):

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1375/761157146_5f85a65e96_o.jp...

http://www.thefakebusters.com/relief carving/photos relief c...

Note that, in either technique, there is considerable "modeling" possible on the surface of the figure itself --i.e., the reverse relief benefits from having the outline of the figure much clearer and more easily "read" but, within that outline, the actual surface of the figure can be treated with great subtlety.

Examples of both techniques exist in their thousands.

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Note added at 1 hr (2017-07-19 18:06:58 GMT)
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Perhaps "intaglio" or "sunken relief"

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Egyptian reliefs

"Reliefs are either sunken or raised. Sunk, or coelanaglyphic, relief, in which the outlines of modeled forms are incised in a plane surface, was used primarily in ancient Egyptian architecture and in ancient Greek, Roman, and Oriental glyptics. A variation of sunk relief is intaglio—the exact reverse of raised relief. Intaglio was intended as a means to achieve a miniature low relief."

I'd go with "sunken relief" --fundamentally oxymoronic as that might be, as Phil suggested. And "intaglio" being a somewhat obscure term (which B. does not use himself.

So, if I had it to do all over: "engraved or sculpted in sunken relief"

It's still a "relief" in that the forms are articulated in various planes, but the whole figure is "sunken."

Which still leaves the question of why the damned thing looks (to my tired eyes) to be carved in *actual* (raised) relief in the photograph.

But, yet once again, it's B.'s text which is being translated, no matter whether it makes sense or not.
Peer comment(s):

neutral philgoddard : I don't see how "creux" (concave) can become "low relief" (convex). I agree it looks that way in the picture, but maybe it's an optical illusion.
4 mins
I'm going on the assumption that "low relief" can mean either "normal" relief (projecting from the ground) or "reverse relief" (projecting *into* the ground plane). Though the latter would, of necessity, have to be quite shallow/"low"
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very very much for the incredible info and discussion!"
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